Where I’ve found different meanings: https://www.academia.edu/12808138/Hungarian_Dictionary ” gond [conf. also romanian gand (thought); Romany gindo]:”care” gondol [from gond Cf.also Rom. gandi; Romany gindil ]:think
care noun -ot, -ja1. 1. An in-depth examination of a troubling issue; internal anxiety caused by sg, torturous restlessness; contemplation, tearing, worry. Torturous, torturous trouble; problems digest, torment; forehead grooved ® grooved; gets into a lot of trouble; to take care of sy; to put sg in the care of sg; sg causes a lot of trouble for sg; he does n’t take much care of sg: he doesn’t care much about it; to drive away his troubles with sg; hangs your worries at an angle; there is a lot of trouble with sg; ® your head is full of care. ? And then there is an unknown problem overwhelmed… ( Ferenc Kölcsey ) Discover the man’s problems with the beautiful moonlight of your lonely joy! ( Dániel Berzsenyi) Carefully woke up autumn king, Restless had a dream at night. ( Mihály Tompa ) the. What causes trouble (1); affair, clever thing, trouble. Paternal, family, custody, housing, school, national, parental care (s); ® pimple problems; lives without problem (s); the problem of sg: dealing with something (long or permanent), caring (compulsion, need); the problem of purchasing, cooking, household, finding housing, editing, traveling, operating, preparing for the exam; ® dismisses the care of sg; get rid of sg; with trouble and trouble: with many difficulties (struggling);a lot of trouble; this is his main, least concern. I can’t get it, a thousand worries. ( vocabulary ) Even a smaller problem is bigger than…: you care about it the least. Sea is my problem, a thousand my problems. ( vocabulary ) Little child little problem, big child big problem. Trouble aside, boo aside! ? What the trouble is worth on bread and water, Add wine to the brittle cup. ( Mihály Vörösmarty ) Small estate is a small problem, large estate is a big problem. ( Géza Gárdonyi ) I thought that with this innocent lie I would take care of everything. ( Dezső Kosztolányi )We are all with you, who has a dignified concern. ( Attila József ) || b. (Material) trouble: a difficulty of a material nature; for money v. lack of other necessary goods. He lives without problem (s). They are provided with everything, no problem. 2. Careful thoroughness, perseverance, careful attention, devotion. He takes care of it, makes it, does sg; he takes great care of sg. This work requires a lot of care and expertise. ? Not stand up, shame,… Stand up… come on what! … He listens [to the king]… about this, but with careful care He discusses the possibility with Kont. ( János Arany ) 3 . Gondja van v. take care of sy, sg: take care of him, care for; ® covers your concern for sg; I will have trouble with it: a) I will take care of him, I will not forget about him; b) <as a threat> I will take care of your trouble !; what’s my problem v. with him ?: what do I care about him ?; to take care of him, to take sy: he undertakes to care for him; takes care of it; to entrust sy with sy ® sg; care ® wears oneself, sg v.to take care of sy, sg. ? (s): 1. forgetful; forgotten; worries; carefree; caring; worried; 2. bread problem; artificial problem.
www.federatio.org › mi_biblPDF Etymological Dictionary of Hungarian (EDH) 22 ian. 2007 — << Uralic languages are a member of the Nostratic “language family” -…….. In this present article I have shown, that according to the etymological reconstruction of the Hungarian basic vocabulary by the four standard etymological dictionaries, there isn’t either an Uralic nor a Finno-Ugric language family.
Although von Hevesy compared in his 1932 book all Finno-Ugrian languages with basically the Kherwarian branch of Munda – especially with Santali and Mundari, since there were no other dictionaries at hand in his time -, he strongly focussed in his conclusions that the basic stock of these Finno-Ugrian people were the Hungarians: “That the Magyars might have passed the Caucasus mountains on the way to their new homeland, is very probable, since the route from India led to the shore of the Asowian Sea, where the Magyars are historically remarked first” (1932, p. 337).
100 gond “worry”, gondolni “to think” ŠL 108/1; 106/11; MSL III 152/367; Gost. 82; Hev. 184 Sum. gun Sant. gund “to reflect, to think”
…..In the following, I present 577 Hungarian-Sumerian-Turkish etymologies. Yet, in very few cases I have given a word from another member of the Turkic language family, when no Turkish etymology was at hand (e.g. Chuvash, Chagatai, Yakut, Uighur), in one case (no. 722) >>
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AHungarian_language <<Important information is also, the Italian substratum and effect on the Romanian language, the Friauli dialect (linguistic continuity between Venetia – Istria – Dalmatia in the Roman times), this can be easily checked (Schuchardt: Der Vocalismus des Vulgarlateins. Leipzig 1868. II. 46)Some Hungarian loanwords from the Romanian language (they are reflecting the case mentioned above):Nému, aldui, aldasiu, fagadasiu, surzuita, birau, biru, kezesiu, oca, uca, orasiu, orasianu, feredeu, hiklenia, valciegu, hasna, keskeneu, mestesiugu, uricasiu, bulciu, gandu, haleu, hotar, holda, ileu, valmasiu, gazdaku, vama, chipu, chipzui, ravasiu, ravasiu de drumu, sáma, dare de sáma, catana, fagadau, lacui, lacasiu, mintui, mintuitor, vileag, siru, urlui, uiag, fel, felu, giulusiu, alénu, bintatuire, untuire, ingaduire, etc.>>
dacia | Vatra Stră-Rumînă | Pagina 7thraxusares.wordpress.com › pageÎn fine, programul Language Rich Europe, condus de British Council, luînd act de … Mulţi ne explică în ziua de azi că Mihai Viteazul nici gând nu avea să … verbul românesc a gândi provine din radicalul proto-indo-european ghend (a prinde,
From https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?zx=5altn8zeq797#inbox?projector=1 Stoica, like most Romanian translators of Shakespeare at that time, proves to be highly influenced by the Latinist trends that advocated the replacement of all words of Slavic origin with words derived from Latin or other Romance language. Thus, he chooses to translate the word friend as amic (Lat. amicus) instead of prieten (Slav. prijatelĩ); love as amor (Lat. amor) instead of iubire (Slav. ljubiti) or dragoste (Slav. dragostĩ); holy as sacră (Lat.sacer) instead of sfântă (Slav. sventŭ); to think or thought as a cugeta or cugetări (Lat. cogitare), instead of a gândi or gânduri (Hung. gond).
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Under work/ To be continued
All endeavour began after I wached on youtube the speach “Some reflections on stupidity/dumbness” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAbNhfCwLhk of Romanian renown scholar Andrei Plesu.
There he made an asertion that the name of one of the most revered monument of romanians, brand-new biggest Orthodox cathedral, ” Catedrala mantuirii neamului” is composed of three words, none of romanian origin, pointing that neam and mantuire is appearing in DEX (Romanian Explanation/Etymological Dictionary) the words neam and mantuire to have an hungarian origin.
I was quite shocked and realised that it is an unforgivable and inexcusable mistake or lack of minimal linguistis knowledge and due of lasyness of our schollars.
Panonian plain and Carpathian Mountains area were inhabited before any of many Asian hordes raided Europe relentless one after another. Inhabited by thraco-dacian related people, and before by ancient populations, pre-Indo-European and after them, true Indo-Europeans. And one of the supposed pool and origin of Indo-European family of languages. https://aleximreh.wordpress.com/2014/10/19/old-europe-the-indoeuropean-homeland-the-aryan-urheimat/
c. 5000 bc. Homeland: The Danube River valley (Wallachia and Hungary).
The Romanian dictionaries consider ‘mântuire’ a loan word from the Hungarian menteni ‘to (get) free, to (self) save, to liberate from a deadlock’. Consulting the Hungarian Etymological Dictionary (1970) we find the verb ment ‘to free, guard, deliver, save, exit, run,’ but not a formmentenias such. This dictionary lists as the first attestation of ment dating around 1195 in the funerary song Halotti beszéd és könyörgés.
<< Important information is also, the Italian substratum and effect on the Romanian language, the Friauli dialect (linguistic continuity between Venetia – Istria – Dalmatia in the Roman times), this can be easily checked (Schuchardt: Der Vocalismus des Vulgarlateins. Leipzig 1868. II. 46). Some Hungarian loanwords from the Romanian language(they are reflecting the case mentioned above): Nému, aldui, aldasiu, fagadasiu, surzuita, birau, biru, kezesiu, oca, uca, orasiu, orasianu, feredeu, hiklenia, valciegu, hasna, keskeneu, mestesiugu, uricasiu, bulciu, gandu, haleu, hotar, holda, ileu, valmasiu, gazdaku, vama, chipu, chipzui, ravasiu, ravasiu de drumu, sáma, dare de sáma, catana, fagadau, lacui, lacasiu, mintui, mintuitor, vileag, siru, urlui, uiag, fel, felu, giulusiu, alénu, bintatuire, untuire, ingaduire, etc.
Quite interesting as long as hungarian tribes come to Europe one with turkic/altaic language (Magyars) and another with ugric (Hungars). From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians#Origin c. 830 to c. 895 Around 830, a rebellion broke out in the Khazar khaganate. As a result, three Kabar tribes of the Khazars joined the Hungarians and moved to what the Hungarians call the Etelköz, the territory between the Carpathians and the Dnieper River. The Hungarians faced their first attack by the Pechenegs around 854,[37] though other sources state that an attack by Pechenegs was the reason for their departure to Etelköz Entering the Carpathian Basin (c. 895) ! ! Cause they entered an already established pool of previ ous thousend years allready settled population . Wich for sure thought all populations of Earth what is happening with them afer death. Me: Until 955 were under Byzantinen empire influenced, and had an incipient form of christianism. They turn to christianism after 955.
Weird, this mentes is identical with : -https://www.spanishdict.com/translate/MENTES?langFrom=es : – mentes:” to mention” and: – latin mentes:”mind” ……(wich in turn has the I.E. root MEN :”mind”( pre I.E. minoan MIN:”constant”), from wich come a constalation of words beginning from gr.menos:”mind,desire, ardor, wish, purpose,anger,courage, spirit, vigor,power, strength, force,violence“
<<Previous attempts to clarify the etymology of this word include suggestions offered by the Romanian theologians who offered a Latin solution for ‘mântuire’ from manes ‘the souls of dead’ and tueor, tueri ‘keep’, thus ´the keeping of the souls after death´. On the same direction is the solution through Latin manus ‘hand’ and teneō ‘to hold’.
Other theologians, among them Dumitru Staniloaie, consider ‘mântuire’ as related to the Latin mentes´mind´ and tueor, tueri, expressing ´a change of mind, a renewal of consciousness´, cognate with the Greek meta-noew ’a change of mind, repent’,….>>
From Late Latin manūteneō (“I support”), from Latin manū (“with the hand”) +(“I hold”). PronunciationEdit. Rhymes: -ere. VerbEdit. manutenere. (transitive)
The theologian St. Augustine, writing about the subject a few centuries after most of the Latin pagan references to such spirits, differentiated Manes from other types of Roman spirits:
Apuleius “says, indeed, that the souls of men are demons, and that men become Lares if they are good, Lemures or Larvae if they are bad, and Manes if it is uncertain whether they deserve well or ill… He also states that the blessed are called in Greek εὐδαίμονες [eudaimones], because they are good souls, that is to say, good demons, confirming his opinion that the souls of men are demons.>>
“
From https://www.wordsense.eu/tueor/?fbclid=IwAR1wnLdxyvpedJywdkBY_XTmfOq38B9JCsjgKior0A0W3ltA3qfCmu-XL6o tueor Alternative forms
??? www.jstor.org › stable Rezultate de pe web Arya IV – jstor de la HW Bailey · 1963 · CLavv’a must now be connected with Latin mant- in mantu-s ‘ short mantle’, mantuitus ‘ cloaked ‘, mantica ‘ wallet ‘, mantellum ‘ covering ‘.
Full text of “ELEMENTS OF THE SCIENCE OF LANGUAGE … https://archive.org/stream/dli.bengal.10689.18003/10689.18003_djvu.txt 170 § 148,^^he elements building up Indo–European languages . … Thus I.-E. •men-fids gives *mT}t6a The Latin mentui preserves the nasal and gives the … Slavic Church Slavic—Bulgarian Serbo- Illyrian Slavic Croatian — Slovenian Itusaian …
From lyricstranslate.com › prasiblaškom-l… Tautinis Brandas – Prasiblaškom versuri + traducere în Engleză 30 sept. 2014 — Kažkas ant gatvės aiškinasi mentui. Lithuanian: Kažkas ant gatvės aiškinasi mentui English: Someone at the street is explaining something to a policeman
Also an text from spanish:
EL CARACTER NARRA’l’IVO DE LA LIRICA DEL REY DON DENIS by Francisco Nodar Manso escholarship.mcgill.ca › dow…PDF Rezultate de pe web in partial fulfilment of the requirements Department of … Francisco Nodar Manso. Hispanic Stud.ies. Master of Arts. Scholars … << Los criticos han analizado la lirica gallegoportuguesa desde dos perspectivas antag5nicas
E oj’ est o prazo passado ! Por que mentui o perjurado? ai, madre, moire d’amor~. (XVII,p.l? , vv.>> Note: perhaps the meaning is “lied to” Portuguese-english https://translate.google.com/?hl=en#pt/en/mentui mentui=”LIED“
Las jarchas estan documentadas desde el siglo XI, y par tanto le corresponde a la lirica hispano-arabiga ser la mas antigua conservada escrita en una lengua romance ; como consecuencia de este hecho las investigaciones pos·teriores a la publicacion de las jarchas parten de la lirica hispano-arabiga para dilucidar los innumerables problemas que suscita el estudio de la lirica medieval europea.
Vease para la musica gallega: J. Ribera, “De musica y metrica gallegas”, Homena,je a Ramon Menendez Pidal, III, 1925, pags. 7-35; Isabel Pope, “Medieval Latin Background of the Thirteenth Century Galician Lyric”, .§.]2, IX, (1943)
?? issuu.com › egigerofa › docs Czuczor-Fogarasi szótár by VZ B – issuu 19 iul. 2011 — Hasonlóan a latin-hellén szerkezetű koroná-nak, mint fejet … fél ( dimidium), fel-et, fel-ek, fel-ez, fél (mentuit) tájejtéssel: fíl ?????
The historie of the Councel of Trent Conteining eight bookes …quod.lib.umich.edu › eebo… of Saint Peter in the Vatican, of Saint Paul, and many others in diuers places, … <<Si ista vera sunt omnia, & Papae nihil mentuisunt, quid opus est Con∣cilio?>>google translate: If these things are true, & there is nothing to the mind of the Pope, what need is there Con|cilio?
=================================================== These supposed: – mantuitus:”cloacked”, (probably related to mantle, mantua) – Croatian menten:” chlamis/dis”, even supposed -Cr. mentui:”avert” – metuo /mentuo/metuere/mentui= “feared”? mentui”avert”, “lied to” ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All are pointing to gr. mantis and manteuomai:”seer,sooth-saying, fortune-telling, oracle and so on.
In fact all above words give an intersection of mental fields of seer, cloak, chlamydis, mantle, guess, warned, etc.
– etruscan & roman haruspices (entrails inspection),seers,fortune-tellers – greek oracles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle#:~:text=The%20most%20important%20oracles%20of,Zeus%20at%20Dodona%20in%20Epirus. and – greek divination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_divination “The other type of mantis was the independent consultant mentioned above. The important generals and statesmen had their own prophets, to avoid such difficulties as Agamemnon experienced, when Calchas forced him to sacrifice his daughter and ransom his female prize in the opening of The Iliad. Privately hired manteis, such as Alexander used, never seemed to disagree with command decisions, or if a possibly negative prophecy was received, made sure that it was given the most favorable interpretation. By that time, based on what Cicero said, the leaders were probably skeptical of prophecy, but the beliefs of the superstitious soldiers were a factor to be considered.”
Incubation (ritual) – Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org › wiki › Incubation_(ritual) <<Incubation is the religious practice of sleeping in a sacred area with the intention of experiencing a divinely inspireddream or cure. Incubation was practised by many ancient cultures. In perhaps the most well known instance among the Hebrews, found in 1 Kings 3, Solomon went to Gibeon “because that was the most renowned high place to offer sacrifices.” There “the Lord appeared to Solomon in a dream at night,” and Solomon asked God for the gift of an understanding heart. Among the members of the cult of Asclepius, votive offerings found at ritual centres at Epidaurus, Pergamum, and Rome detail the perceived effectiveness of the method. Incubation was adopted by certain Christian sects[1] and is still used in a few Greek monasteries. Modern practices for influencing dream content by dream incubation use more research-driven techniques, but they sometimes incorporate elements reflecting these ancient beliefs.
A form of incubation was also used by ancient Greeks iatromantes. According to Peter Kingsley, iatromantis figures belonged to a wider Greek and Asian shamanic tradition with origins in Central Asia. A main ecstatic, meditative practice of these healer-prophets was incubation (ἐγκοίμησις, enkoimesis). More than just a medical technique, incubation reportedly allowed a human being to experience a fourth state of consciousness different from sleeping, dreaming, or ordinary waking: a state that Kingsley describes as “consciousness itself” and likens to the turiya or samādhi of the Indian yogic traditions.>>
Note ! in english we have cloack as mantle and cloac as primitive animals common digestive-genital tract the word related to incubation.(latin cloaca sewer, cesspit, cesspool, (anatomy) cloaca
…..to before-romanians ZALMOXIS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zalmoxis << Zalmoxis had lived among the wisest of Greeks, such as Pythagoras, and had been initiated into Ionian life and the Eleusinian Mysteries.He built a banquet hall, and received the chiefs and his fellow countrymen at a banquet. He taught that neither his guests nor their descendants would ever die, but instead would go to a place where they would live forever in a complete happiness. He then dug an underground residence. When it was finished, he disappeared from Thrace, living for three years in his underground residence. The Thracians missed him and wept fearing him dead. The fourth year, he came back among them and thus they believed what Zalmoxis had told them.[ >>
Salmos (spanish “psalm”) and solomonari. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomonari <<Zeus hypothesis. King Solomon as weather-maker may derive from the Greek myth of Zeus the king of gods controlling the weather, a theory proposed by A. Oișteanu[41] This notion that Solomon’s adherents were wizards may have been popularized by the influence of the adventure tale Solomon and Morcolf.[42>>
www.biblicalstudy.ru › … Новый Завет – Мир НЗ – Bible Studies – Русские страницы It is possible to think of him as an ‘incomplete’ Christian, as indeed was Apollos … In Jer 27,9 [LXX], the false prophets are linked with the manteuo/menoi kai_ oi( ..
documente.bcucluj.ro › webPDF pag.589 b andeie v. manteie, ( Ita/ manta smantella)
By short, the romanian word MANTUIRE=”REDEEMER” has its roots in pre-christian pagan customs wich later somehow coexisted in the same time with christian faith. Those seers, wizards, fortune-tellers, sooth-sayers ,deviners. mags, magicians associated in different measures throughout the time by people withfalsity, lie-lying, pseudo-nomo, ?+fear? Also in the semanthic field “hidden-covered“, avertat=divert ,wich really divert people out of sound thinking and turning-diverting them from their previous pagan or christian faith.They were usually dressed with mantles-cloaks-capes and lived in dirt (see lat. cloaca eng. cloac). From https://glosbe.com/la/en/mentitus?fbclid=IwAR0Iq8ErR6UwyAUfWYVGbleEbA8xggaxSm6Lm4SlSL_sN7oLwuyjLv5zuQ4mentitus: “counterfeit , feigned ,imitated“
Theat’s why gr.mantis-manteuomay is related to mantel-cloak. Also mantis has the same root as mind. Seers not see with eyes but with mindFurther mind is related from the same root to lying.(I.E. root men:” mind”, gr. mantis, μαντεύω=manteuo; lat. mentes & mentis =”mind”; mentior,mentiri,mentire:”to lie” sp.port. “mentir”Old fr. mentir etc.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_in_the_Greco-Roman_world <<According to one source magic in general was held in low esteem and condemned by speakers and writers……..According to Robert Parker, “magic differs from religion as weeds differ from flowers, merely by negative social evaluation”; magic was often seen as consisting of practices that range from silly superstition to the wicked and dangerous. However, magic seems to have borrowed from religion, adopting religious ceremonies and divine names, and the two are sometimes difficult to clearly distinguish. Magic is often differentiated from religion in that it is manipulative rather than supplicatory of the deities.>>
www.jstor.org › stable Prophecy and Ecstasy in Greco-Roman Religion and … – jstor de la T Callan · 1985 · Citat de 44 · Articole conexe RELIGION AND IN 1 CORINTHIANS by. TERRANCE CALLAN … I will be your spokesman” (manteuo, Moisa, pr. R. Dodds comments ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
So with deep sorrow I must dissapoint and deceive some of you, showing you an sermo vulgaris vulgar latin=romance family word: MENTUITUS Note: the vulgar latin texts has a very scarce presence
aliso.pntic.mec.es › lista › pdfPDF Rezultate de pe web Amicum habes Now i know, that I had to borrow,. Beg and steal and lie and cheat. … quanto promisi , rapui, mentuitussum et fefelli conandus te acquiscere …
HUNFALVY PÁL. AZ OLÁHOK TÖRTÉNETE. II. KÖTET. A MAGYAR TUDOMÁNYOS AKADÉMIA KÖNYVKIADÓ https://archive.org/stream/azolhoktrtnete02hunf /azolhoktrtnete02hunf_djvu.txt
"A figyelemre méltó másik szó a mentueste^ mentiiaste különbféle írással kifejezve. Ez a mentui igének con-junctivus praesense. A Máté 27. fejezetének 24. versét: ^Egyebeketmegtartott, de magát nemtarthatjameg» az Új testamentomi fordítás így adja vissza: «Pre altii amentuitu, eara pre sine nu poate sa sementuia.» Ennek az új fordításnak czíme : «Noulu Testamentu alu domnului siMentuitoriului nostru Jisusu Hristosu».
Honnan valók a mentui és mentuitoriu szók ? Pont-
briantnak rumun-franczia szótára azt is helyesen a ma-
gyar menteni szótól származtatja. A Megváltó az olaszban
Salvatore^ a spanyolban Salvador^ a francziában Sauveur
vagy serbatoare lehetett: úgyde ezt a nyelv már az stb. miért nem képezte az oláh nyelv is a latin salvare szóból a Megváltónak nevét? Azért nem, mert az az
oláhban csak sárbatoare « ünnep » kifejezésére foglalta volt le.
Azért folyamodott a magyarmentemhez.^ ebből mentui igét és mentuitoriunévszót képezvén.*^''
A rumun nyelv nemcsak magyar szókat fogadott cl,
melyek mind a míveltség magasabb (politikai és egyházi)"
I must check how is written in The Hussite Bible (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussite_Bible#Vocabulary is the only written vestige of Hussitism in Hungary. The book – or at least the most of it – was translated by Tamás Pécsi and Bálint Újlaki.)
Romanian translation: Un alt cuvânt remarcabil este mentueste mentuiaste
exprimată în scrieri diferite. Acest con-junctivus praesense. Versetul 24 din Matei 27:
<<El i-a păstrat pe alții, dar nu se poate păstra pe el însuși>>
Revine o nouă traducere testamentară: «Pre altii a mentuitu, eara pre sine nu poate sa se mentuia. » Din aceasta titlul noii traduceri: «Noulu Testament alu domnului si Mentuitoriului nostru Jisusu Hristosu ».
De unde vin cuvintele mentui și mentuitoriu? Punct-
Dicționarul român-francez Briant este, de asemenea, corect din cuvantul maghiar menteni (salvează) cuvântul derivă. Mântuitorul în Italiana Salvatore în spaniolă Salvador în franceză Sauveur Sauveur etc. :de ce limba vlaha nu a format și latina salvare
numele Mântuitorului la propriu? Nu, pentru că în Vlaha ar putea fi doar sárbatoare sau serbatoare: așa mai departe
Limba era deja rezervată pentru termenul «vacanță».
El a făcut apel la mentemhez-ul meu maghiar. ^ Din care mentui
verb și substantiv mentuitoriu. *
Limba română a primit nu numai cuvinte maghiare cl,
care sunt toate superioare în educație (politică și ecleziastică)
Nota: Foarte stiintifica abordarea atat timp cat extrage acel pasaj Matei din propria lucrare.Cand putea face un minim efort sa vaza cum apar cuvintele in scripturi romanesti mai vechi sau foarte vechi ! ============== English translation ======
HUNFALVY PÁL. OLAH(VLACHS)HISTORY
II. VOLUMES. BOOK PUBLISHING COMPANY OF THE HUNGARIAN ACADEMY OF SCIENCES. NEW PROCESS. XIX. VOLUMES. https://archive.org/stream/azolhoktrtnete02hunf/azolhoktrtnete02hunf_djvu.txt
"Another remarkable word is mentueste mentuiaste expressed in different writings. This con-junctivus praesense. Verse 24of Matthew 27: << He has kept others, but he cannot keep himself >> A new testamentary translation returns:
A new testamentary translation returns: «Pre altii a mentuitu, eara pre sine nu poate sa se mentuia. » Of this the title of the new translation: «Noulu Testamentu alu domnului si Mentuitoriului nostru Jisusu Hristosu ». Where do the words mentui and mentuitoriu come from? Point-The Romanian-French dictionary of briant also correctly derives it from the Hungarian word menteni (me:save). The Savior in ItalySalvatore ^ in Spanish Salvador ^ in French Sauveuretc. why did not the Vláh language also form the Latin salvarethe name of the Savior literally? Not because it isin Oláh it could only be sárbatoare or serbatoare: so onThe language was already reserved for the term «holiday».He appealed to my Hungarian mentemhez of which mentuiverb and mentuitoriu noun. * ^ ''The Romanian language received not only Hungarian words cl, which are all higher in education (political and ecclesiastical ======:https://www.dict.com/angol-magyar/mentemhezmentemhez:"cent" https://www.dict.com/angol-magyar/menteni menteni:"swing, sweep, beckon,motion, wave(one's hand), warn away from sth. From 1749 Bible same passage Google translate, tarthatja :"can hold" megtartott:"retained" I am asking too/the same question: Mr.PÁL, why you do not used for mentuit/mentuire (enlesh redeem,redeemer) Mentemhez-derived words, but: 1.megvalt: "realised"; 2. https://hungarian.english-dictionary.help/english-to-hungarian-dictionary-meaning-of-redeem Redeem :megvált
Redeemed :: megváltott Redeemer :: Megváltó
Camerata Hungarica - Magyarországi Evangélikus Egyház
www.evangelikus.hu › sites › default › files › C-SectionSaviour (Megváltó)
=====
My note: He cited the Matehew27 passage from his own paper, not from much or most ancinent romanian writings. In fact there is an close form latin verb mentuire https://en.eprevodilac.com/prevodilac-latinski-engleski . But of course from mentire "to lie" from Latin mentīrī, present active infinitive of mentior:"Denominal verb from mēns, mentis ("mind"). The meaning "to lie" stems from a semantic shift "to be inventive, have second thoughts" , but from the other its 3 meanings:deceive, pretend, feign because the word come to be used before christian religion from pagan devinators,wizzards.Maybe : - latins perceived early christians as deceive( trick or mislead)from their fate, or as well - ancient romanians as under early christian influence perceived latin devinators & haruspices as diverting deceive( trick or mislead)them from their faith.
mentītus(masc.) (fem.mentīta, neut.mentītum)
lied, deceivedpretended, feigned.If we have the same mentuire we have not rom.mentitus but mentuitu(s) wich is not present in this shape in latin, only tuitus (defended,saved) separately.
eng.(to)keep rom.(a)”pastra,continua,mentine” 1.rom. Mentine: engl.”maintain” << latin man(u)-tenere
2.also lat. ”man(ere)-tuitu(s) “remain / last-defended rom. (a)”ramane/sfarsi –aparat, salvat”3.Also lat.Man(es)-tuit(us) :” save(d)-spirit(soul)” rom. Mantuit(us): “savedsoul” I wander from wich briant french dictionary (but I will check further) he found that rom. “(a) mantui”= eng.”to redeem” is from hungarian language "menteni"!? As long as I found also Indo-European/Romance/Old French “mentui” a form of mentevoir:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Full text of "Grammaire sommaire de 1!ancien français .."archive.org › stream
https://archive.org/details/grammairesommai00bonngoog
Mentir. Ind. prés. 2* s. mens; 3® s. ment, manL — Pas. déf. 2® s. mentis; 3** s. mentid, mentit, menti, manti ; 3® pi. mentirent. — Futur. 3" s. mentirad. — Subj. prés.
3* s. mentet, mente. — Infin. mentir, mantir. — Part. prés, mentant. — Part, pas, mentit, mentut.
Mentevoir et Mentoivrk. Ind. prés, l""* s. mentoif, mantoif, mentois, mantpis; 3*^ s. mentoit; 2* pi. menlevez, menteves. — Imparf. 3® s. mentevoit. — Pas. déf. f® s. mentui,
menti ; 3® pi. menlurent, manturenl. — Subj. prés. 3* s. mentoive, mentive. — Infin. menteveir, mentevoir, mentovoir, mentaveir, mentoivre. — Part. prés, mentevant. — Part. pas.
menteii, manteii, mantehu, mentati, mentiut, mentut, mantu.
From https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mentevoir
1. Etymology: From Latinmentehabēre ("have in mind"). Compare Occitanmentàver. Mentevoir: “to mention; to speak of”
Note: Mentui from any where could come :
- Is far from Old French mentui: “mentioned,spoked of” or other identical, at least because Romanian word “(a)mantui “ has much, many meanings as gr. Soter(ios),or engl.redeem, save.
- Gramatical forms is evidencing by “tuit”/”tuitu(s)” possible a much older origin as romance/sermo vulgaris stage. It seem that is related to latin Balcanic/Aegean mistery rel igions, scorcerers-sooth-sayers,wizards-fortune tellers (in fact at least partly kind of crooks) From the time of Salmos(es)/Zalmoxis and solomonari.
-Sp.salmos=psalm ; thr. salmos:animal skin covering(cloak). @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
If I will have time I am convinced that this cluster: hu. menteni/mentemhez gr. men mantis manteuomai, manteuo(μαντεύω,μαντεύτε ) lat. mens/mentis/mentui, mentior/mentitus ; rom. mantui(mentui)/mantuire(mentuire)/mantuit(mentuit),mentine, mentenanta fr.mentire, mentevoir/mentui , mentener="keep" engl. maintain , maintenance All are stemming/originate/pertain to I.European family of languages.They have in common humankind mind wich ultimate is at the origin and determining different mental processes and physical actions.----------------------------------
Révai Miklós Magyar irodalmi régiségek Antiquitates literaturae Hungaricaehttp://mek.oszk.hu/16900/16955/16955.pdf Es marada anemberi Ð ket fiaytol » ferietÐl
megvalt (Ruth 1,5), ’Remansitque mulier orbata duobus liberis suis, ac marito
suo’ mente ’clamys’ A birtokos eset toldaléka a magánhangzóra végződő töveknél a választékosabb használatban a jóhangzás kedvéért szintén j-t kap, mint például:almájé, mentéjé, ollójé, bár sokan keményebben ejtik: almáé, mentéé, ollóé. Ennyit a szabályról.
A második, rövidebb halotti beszéd
A KÉZIRATI PÉLDÁNY
Scerelmes bratým uımaggomuc ez scegen ember lılkıert. kıt vr ez nopun ez homus vılag tımnucebelevl mente. kınec ez nopun testet temetívc. hug
ur uvt kegılmehel abraam. ùsaac. iacob kebeleben helhezıe. hug bırsagnop
ívtva mend vv scentíí es unuttei cuzıcun ıov felevl ıchtotnıa ılezıe vvt. Es
tıv bennetuc. clamate ııı. Á.
A KIADÓ OLVASATA
Szerelmes barátim! vimádjamuk ez szegény ember lelkéért, kit Úr ez napon
ez hamos világ tömnötzebelől mente, kinek ez napon testét temetjük: hogy Úr
vőt kegyelméhel, Ábrahám, Izsák, Jákob kebelében helyhezje; hogy, bírságnap jutva, ménd vő Szentei és Önöttei közökön jov felől ioktatnia éleszje vőt.
És tiv bennetöket. Clamate ter: Kyrie eleison!
Ha zerzendez m¹nket megzabadoitanod (uo., 13,9), ’Si decreveris nos salvare’. me: megzabadoitanod "you get rid of it"
folia uralica debreceniensia 25. - Finnugor Nyelvtudományi ...
finnugor.arts.unideb.hu › fud › fud25 › fud25_2
PDF 4.1.2. идемс ’megvált’, идиця ’megváltó’, идема ’megváltás’
● сонъ идисамизь минекъ душманнокъ эйстэ да весе а вечкитсянокъ кедстэ // кучовтозесь идесамизь эсенек вардотнеде ды сетнень кедест алдо, конат кирдить
кеж минек лангс // что спасет нас от врагов наших и от руки всех ненавидящих
нас // megmentett minket ellenségeinktől és gyűlölőink kezétől (01:71)
● монь оймемъ Идится Пазомъ туртовъ эрьгеди // ды монь оймем кенярды Паздонть, монь Идицядонть // и возрадовался дух Мой о Боге, Спасителе Моем //
és szívem ujjong megváltó Istenemben (01:47)
● тонъ ломатненень максатъ идимадостъ да пежетестъ кадовмадостъ чаркодьме //
тон кармат сонзэ ломантнень чарькодевтеме идемадо, конась ашти пежетест
нолдамосо // дать уразуметь народу Его спасение в прощении грехов их // hogy
az üdvösség ismeretét add népének bűnei bocsánatára (01:77)
● монь сельмень неизь ней Тонть ломатнень идиматъ // эдь монь сельметне неизь
тонь кучовт идеманть // ибо видели очи мои спасение Твое // mert látta szemem
üdvösségedet (02:30)
Ld. még: 02:11 (идиця), 03:06 (идема).
идемс ’выручить, выкупить, спасти, избавить / auslösen, loskaufen,
freikaufen, retten, erretten, erlösen’ (MdWb 439); ’спасти, выручить’ (ERV
203); ’megment, kiment’ (EMSz 124); ’pelastaa, vapauttaa’ (ESS 55); идиця
’спаситель / erlöser’ (MdWb 441); ’спаситель’ (ERV 203); ’megmentő, megváltó’ (EMSz 124). Az идема az иде- igetőből -ма névszóképzővel alkotott
főnév. Az идиця participium praesens alak. – Ismeretlen eredetű szó (ESM
82).
All endeavour began after I wached on youtube “Some reflections on stupidity/dumbness” of Romanian renown schollar Andrei Plesu.
There he made an asertion that the name of one of the most revered monument of romanians, biggest Orthodox cathedral, ” Catedrala mantuirii neamului” is composed of three words, none of romanian origin, pointing that neam and mantuire is appearing in DEX (Romanian Explanation/Etymological Dictionary) words neam and mantuire appear to have an hungarian origin.
I was quite shocked and realised that it is an unforgivable and inexcusable mistake or lack of minimal linguistis knowledge and due of lasyness of our schollars.
And one of the supposed pool and origin of Indo-European family of languages.
Panonian plain and Carpathian mountains were inhabited before any of many Asian hordes raided Europe relentless one after another. Inhabited by thraco-dacian related people, and before by ancient populations, pre-Indo-European and after true Indo-Europeans. And one of the supposed pool and origin of Indo-European family of languages. https://aleximreh.wordpress.com/2014/10/19/old-europe-the-indoeuropean-homeland-the-aryan-urheimat/
c. 5000 bc. Homeland: The Danube River valley (Wallachia and Hungary). =========================================================== Here About “neam”
lat. nōmen, ant. irl. ainmm, toc. A ñom, B ñem, ted. Name, gr. ant. ónoma, itt. lāman, ant. prus.emnes, emmens, russo ímja, alb. emër, arm. anun, av. nāman, sscr. nā́ma
More to sustain that above: Note: At the origin ancestor of romanian language was Centum (Italo-Celtic), later after coming of slavs in europe turned to acquire some slavic aspects especially in vocabulary.
From en.wikimergic.org › wiki › Name name – Wikimergic, the first-level WikiSiloing for decisioning and … … from the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) *h₁nómn̥. Perhaps connected to non- Indo-European terms such as Tamil நாமம் (namam) and Proto-Uralic *nime.
journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de › …PDF UN TEZAUR DE MONEDE MOLDOVENEğTI DE LA … Drăgan Dănovac, an Armenian merchant, lived in Suceava in the first half of the 16th century. … de izvod ca să ne arate săminŃăiile lui Danovici din niam în niam, cu care să poată dovedi.
la deuxième conjugaison active des verbesNEAM : la deuxième conjugaison active des verbes, 1 ére personne singulier présent subjonctif actif
actif subjonctif présent 1ére pers. sing. NEAM
NEO, ES, ERE, EVI, NETUM, tr 2 siècle avant J.C.PLAUTUS (Plaute) filer v. t : amener une matière textile en état de fil voir: filer 1 siècle avant J.C.VERGILIUS MARO (Virgile) entrelacer v. t : (tisser, mêler), enlacer l’un dans l’autrevoir: entrelacer mêler v. t : (entrelacer), emmêler voir: mêler tisser v. t : fabriquer en entrecroisant les fils voir: tisser
Careful/ Attention ! This post is not a decipherment or reading of any actual written content of Tartaria tablets. Given that the signs do not belong to a single writing system but to several, the page has a purely didactic character. It has the role of trying and testing different writings, in the idea that the tablets would have used one of them. The signs on the tablets belong to several writing systems over a long period of time and which have been used in different geographical areas. In none of the trials did the signs fall into a single type of writing, there always remained signs that came from other writings (or as coming from the unknown). Most of the signs come from the Sumerian proto-cuneiform -shaped ones. The signs in the upper half of the round tablet seem to come from archaic Greek writing. This “collection” of signs seems to be the fruit of one’s rich imagination. As A. Falkenstein and A. A. Vaiman found, (this is also my firm opinion) the author was not a scribe, he had only vague notions about writing in general, and it is not known what he intended or he was after. There are many elements of inconsistency as well as others that take the tablets out of the usual patterns and norms of honest logic, writing and intentions. =====
Pity enough, for every folowing cases, some criteria increase the chances for case to be real, and not waiting, other criteria come lowering the chances.
3200-2500 B.C. SUMER; Sumerian/Syrian trader.
Pro/For: general sign shapes, similar to proto cuneiform, not genuine/proper sumerian, but “quasi-sumerian” !!; Contra/Agains: Extreme far distance from Mesopotamia, low chances to be brought from Sumer, n ot exact shape for many signs, signs order, casette spacing, presence of some newer signs (“D”, heth/PA3) etc. The “scribe” not followed sumerian technique, structure and management of the signs, + it seem that tried to imitate numbers. The “writer” was not aware, dropped off a clue: Instead of showing the shape of proto cuneiform sign KU/GA2 wich in proto-cuneiform is SQUARED/BOXED, put a much later shape: ladder “a scala”, (opened) as Linear A sign/syllabogram PA2 or with the same shape ancient canaanite HETH. If inscribed in 2.700-3.000 B.C. he does not know that ONLY in 2.200 and 1.000 B.C. will appear the signs PA2 and respective Heth ! Beside this, all upper half of the round tablet could contain newer signs ! Chance: 1% for native sumerian and 5% for born abroad Sumer, sumerian/syrian trader.
2.800-2.200 B.C. Levant (Syria), Anatolia, AegeanPro/For: much close to Transylvania, itinerant trader or metal worker ; due of a trade network, there were “URUK” colonies or enclaves outside Mesopotamia (Anatolia, Syria). Contra/Against: newer signheth/PA3 ;some newer signs: “D”. Proto cuneiform signs were used only in Sumer and Iran from 3.500 to ~2.800? B.C. for mainly (if not only)administrative purposes. They were used short time and after were discarded. The sumerian proto-cuneiform tablets remained burried until 1.920-1.925 !,not accesibible for any individual. So signs not known in Aegean but possible known in South-Eastern Anatolia.Cause of : – presence of much newer signs (exact shape of PA3/heth, D-shape) and not respecting sumerian technique and internal organising/structure of signs, – By my knowledge, not a single tablet with proper proto-cuneiform was found in Anatolia or Aegean areas, only in Syria. The chances for Anatolia/Aegean (Crete) are very low, 5/1 %, and for Syria are low 15%
From site.unibo.it › results › filePDF Urbanized Landscapes in Early Syro-Mesopotamia and … – Unibo que les sites clefs de Hacinebi, Hassek Höyük et Arslantepe ont vu leur stratigraphie connectée au schéma … “Uruk colonies” did not produce full- fledged proto-cuneiform records, it has been postulated.
From www.archeo.ru › … › Annotations of issues Археологические вести. Спб, 1994. Вып. 3. Аннотации … “ Falkenstein has compared the Tàrtâria tablets with those from layer III in Uruk and Jemdet-nasr (late proto-Sumerian script) using a number of criteria, such as clay, format, stylus, structure of the text, signs. He has proved beyond doubt that the script of the Tàrtâria tablets had been directly influenced by the proto-Sumerian script.”
2.800-1.500 B.C. Aegean, Syria, Anatolia. Pro/For: place pretty close, some signs present in Aegean protolinear or in Linear A /B. Extensive sumerian trade cultural expansion and trade network . Between Sumer, Crete, Cyclades and Eastern Anatolia. Contra/Against: Some signs on tablets has ambigous shapes, not found in proto cuneiform nor in other places (e.g. Aegean).Not sure in wich measure proto cuneiform signs were known in the area; some newer signs “D”,”c”. Relative to DDoo sequence on the round tablet, there are only folowing possibilities: – The “scribe” wanted and intended to depict numbers/food signs and inscribed signs used in his (unknown yet) area. For 5% – The “scribe” want and intented to depict number or food units and intentionally imitate sumerian-ones. For 10% Not found any proto cuneiform tablets in Anatolia, Aegean areas excepting Syria. Only few Aegean signs has proto cuneiform shapes (PA2,PA) maybe more in Anatolian writings. – Wanted to show the 4 moon-phases For: 15% For Anatolian origin: 10%; For Aegean origin: 8%.
AGAIN REMEMBER: Proto cuneiform signs were used roughly between 3.500 ~2.800 B.C. – Were used mainly or even only for accounting/administrative tablets – Useful & necessary for a short period of time (max. 1 year ?) – After this were discarded – From say ~ 2.800 B.C. (after wich were integrated as raw materials in construction of new temples ), until 1925-1935 REMAIN OUT OF HUMAN REACH/VIEW, BURRIED. This simple fact is sufficient for greatly lowering the chances that tablets to be genuine, made by a scribe and for practical purposes (administrative, economical), maybe even for religious purpose.
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk_period?fbclid=IwAR3qlAaJHvDBhzaqsvrIYzu0IZ_vqCsXDGuBlQvuUzHLY4wc4gtqPZGZrcc “Neighbouring regions. The sources relating to the Uruk period derive from a group of sites distributed over an immense area, covering all of Mesopotamia and the neighbouring regions up to central Iran and southeastern Anatolia. …… exact relations with the Uruk culture were distant and are the object of debate, as well as the Levant, where the influence of southern Mesopotamia remains barely perceptible. But in other areas the Uruk culture is more evident, such as Upper Mesopotamia, northern Syria, western Iran and southeastern Anatolia“. Me: Arslantepe, Kazane Hoyuk and many many others, mainly in Anatolia’s South-Eastern part, toward Cilicia and Syrian border.“
From maistre.uni.cx › Texts › HistoryPDF Civilizatoin before Greece and Rome – Joseph de Maistre by HWF Saggs · “mixture of word-signs (technically, ideograms or logograms) and syllable- signs ( syllograms) written … and some of the Tartaria signs are at least as similar to signs in the earliest Cretan script”
From https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305817709_The_Philistine_Inscription_45_from_Ashkelon_Israel “Dr. Cross said in an interview that several signs in the Ashkelon inscriptions “fit in with well-known Cypro-Minoan,” in particular from artifacts recovered at sites in Cyprus and at Ugarit, in Syria. He said the script had some characteristics of Linear A, the writing system used in the Aegean from 1650 B. C. to 1450 B. C. This undeciphered script was supplanted by another, Linear B, which was identified with the Minoan civilization of Crete and was finally decoded in the mid-20th century. Recent excavations have raised the estimation of Philistines. …Leon Levy Expedition “We can’t read the inscription, and that’s true as well of Cypro-Minoan writing found on Cyprus,” Dr. Cross said. “We will need a lot more samples before we can think of deciphering it.” The two researchers and other scholars said it was not surprising that the Ashkeloninscriptions were in an Aegean type of writing. The biblical Philistines are assumed to have been a group of the mysterious Sea Peoples who probably originated in the Greek islands and migrated to several places on the far eastern shores of the Mediterranean.”
“-The Neolithic expansion, as is generally accepted in our time, started from the Aegean towards the North and not the opposite (of course, there also exists the controversial issue of some supposed initial migrations from Anatolia-Near East which, as we have presented with the help of officially published material, do not seem to be the case. It is more likely that domesticated seeds and animals were adopted by the Aegeans, through Trade, from the East rather than that the Aegeans were…substituted by some ‘ghost’ Eastern population that does not at all culturally-archaeologically appear in the Aegean or Southeastern Europe during the Neolithic).Therefore we must derive that Writing expanded from the Aegean to the North and not the opposite as some researchers have suggested in the past.
-It is suggested, if the above are in the correct direction, that future archaeological excavations in the Aegean-Greek peninsula must discover inscriptions and forms of Writing between the 6th and the 2nd millennium, to fill a logical evolutionary gap.”
1.000 B.C.-300 A.C. Levant, Aegean Pro/For: Archaic greek shape “D”, “heta/eta” ,”zeta” .Note that in Aegean writings one find distant relation with proto-cuneiform, in Anatolian writings there are much more similar signs (Alphabets of Asia Minor). Contra/Against: suppose not known by that time sumerian proto cuneiform signs, (Me:only influenced beginning of writing but: MINOANS USED SIMILAR HIERO/SACRED SIGNS ! ) Chances: Anatolian (e,g,carian): 30 % ; Aegean/Archaic greek: 25 %.
See signs similar to that on tablets (e.g. para-carian:”p”,”n/a”, “è“, “u”, “x“; sidetian “b”, “v”,”n” ; lycian “n”,”u”, “k”; carian “n”, “n/a”, “e1”, “u”) From ALPHABETS OF ASIA MINOR https://tied.verbix.com/project/script/asiam.html
From www.researchgate.net › publication (PDF) Proto-elamite writing in Iran ” The evidence from Arslantepe. par Marcella” “… discovery of the first proto-cuneiform tablets in Uruk from 1928″.
300 A.C.-1.800 A.D. Pro: possible presence of signs in church libraries !? Vatican? Contra: Discovery of the first proto-cuneiform tablets in Uruk from 1920–25. Not known proto-cuneiform signs until 1925 because until this year were burried Chances: 2 %
1.800 A.D.- 1961 Europe Pro: General appearance of the tablets: not as for a coherent/concrete/definite writing but as a pile of signs allready used in different types of writings. Schollars begun to know and made progress for all World writings and signs. Discovery of the first proto-cuneiform tablets in Uruk from 1925. Some signs has refined, much newer shapes. Possibility to be modern fakes. Contra: slight or no hard evidences, no complete sustainable arguments. Chances: 50%
From www.persee.fr › doc › dha_0755-7… The tablets of Tǎrtǎria. An enigma ? A reconsideration and further … by S PALIGA · 1993 · Sorin PALIGA Université de Bucarest ” … It is admissible that the three tablets of Târtâria are false, a possibility about which little is written yet …”
It is weird that Zsofia Torma was convinced of presence in Transylvania of signs with a sumerian origin. Also from the beginning “discoverer” N.Vlassa stated first? (he who had no expertise in assyrology or proto cuneiform) from the very beginning that the signs are close to those used in Jemdet Nasr (probably and much sure heard some first echoes from western schollars).Otherwise Vlassa prejugment after discovery (1963) the similarity with Jemdet Nasr, i.e. the Uruk III period when top-level scholars gave their opinions in and after 1965. (A.Falkenstein, A.A.Vaiman)
From www.academia.edu › Tartaria_and_t… (PDF) Tartaria and the sacret tablets | Marco Merlini – Academia.edu TĂRTĂRIa AND THE SACRED TABLETS EURO INNOVANET ITALY … “Gelb denied any Jemdet Nasr script on the Transylvanian tablets”
The writer made some monumental mistakes (blunders, gaffes, faux pass):
collected pictograms, ideograms, logograms/syllabograms and even letters from different writing systems.
put them on different tablets
to show that in fact he know to write, possible wrote a line on upper half of the round tablet (wich by chance was hidden by the oblong punched tablet)
was or not aware that presence of much newer signs left evidence that the signs were inscribed after ~2.000 B.C., possible much later.
Careful/ Attention ! This post is not a decipherment or reading of any actual written content of Tartaria tablets. Given that the signs do not belong to a single writing system but to several, the page has a purely didactic character. It has the role of trying and testing different writings, in the idea that the tablets would have used one of them.The signs on the tablets belong to several writing systems over a long period of time and which have been used in different geographical areas. In none of the trials did the signs fall into a single type of writing, there always remained signs that came from other writings (or as coming from the unknown). Most of the signs come from the Sumerian proto-cuneiform shaped ones. The signs in the upper half of the round tablet seem to come from archaic Greek writing. This “collection” of signs seems to be the fruit of one’s rich imagination. As A. Falkenstein and A. A. Vaiman found, (this is also my firm opinion) the author was not a scribe, he had only vague notions about writing in general, and it is not known what he intended or he was after. There are many elements of inconsistency as well as others that take the tablets out of the usual patterns and norms of honest logic, writing and intentions. ======== Quite early I realised and come to the conclusion that innitial estimated “age determination” (5.300 B.C.)/M.Merlini) of the tablets is terrible wrong. From www.scribd.com › document › All-… All Shades of Gray – The Case of ‘Vinča Script’ | Runes | Writing ” The tablets from Tartaria in Romania (Makkay 1969), from a dubious archaeological and stratigraphic context, were one of …”
From www.academia.edu › Settling_disco… (PDF) Settling discovery circumstances, dating and … “David G. Zanotti advanced the possibility that the tablets were intrusivefrom the upper strata most likely connected with the Bronze Age presence on the site, in particular with Baden-Kostolac culture.” Image, from http://www.ttamil.com/2017/11/story-or-history-of-writingpart05.html
Due the fact that the signs on upper half of the round tablet are much newer than the proto cuneiform time (~3.000 B.C.). Those signs appeared 1000-2000 years after. The “H”-like sign is like, but not proto cuneiform sign “GA2” From cdli.ucla.edu › tools › archsigns
You must agree with one simple fundamental and rational conclusion: At a given time, (Eg, 3000-2700 BC ) one cannot know and use the signs wich appeared later (2.200 -600 B.C.) !!!. I advance here the hypothesis that :
INSCRIPTION TRANSLATION “‘to the hero’ or ‘to the deceased’…Is the slab a votive for a proper hero or a grave stele of an undistinguished mortal?” (Greenewalt).
NOTE. The sign +++++ could be for “OS” or “50” (age of the deceased?!) From https://books.openedition.org › pulg The Sacrificial Rituals of Greek Hero-Cults in the Archaic to the … The review of the literary evidence concludes with a discussion on the use and meaning of the specification of some sacrifices as ὡς ἥρῳ (OS:
From https://www.academia.edu › AULAS… (DOC) AULASGREGO | fabio MALESA – Academia.edu … ῥάζζω que se precipita 15. antídoto ἀληί + δίδωκη (remédio) dado contra
From www.filologia.org.br › tomo_3PDF O estudo de metaplasmos tem sido uma das atividades fundamentais … (bhárati); dar: lat. do, gr. δίδωκη, sânscr. dád ti)
From https://www.brainscape.com › packs Rezultate de pe web Greek > Verbs > Flashcards – Brainscape Greek > Verbs > Flashcards. Study These Flashcards. Study These Flashcards. Flashcards in Verbs Deck (32). 0 … I chase ( didoko
Remain a big question mark : Could somebody (supposed writer) know the rest of the signs ? From wich area ? Syro-Phoenician, (Aegean included) Probably used only as sacred signs in religious rituals? ———————————————————————
We have also on upper half of the round tablet as well, etruscan letters : From www.jstor.org › stable An Etruscan Inscription on a Statuette of Herakles – jstor
If a sumerian wanted to make D D o o (1+1+10+10) he must imprint the signs! Despite (From A.Falkenstein/The texte aus Uruk) there is a sign “D” as ATU 527, there is no one instance of inscribed “D”, only punctured !
From Hans J. Nissen, The Early History of the Ancient Near East: 9000-2000 BC , translated by Elizabeth Lutzeier with Kenneth J. Northcott. 1988 by the University of Chicago] “In these early phases, the uses of writing were limited and, because of its basis in trade, consisted just as much of numbers as of words. Among the signs, for example, there was one which had a D-shape: there was a straight edge which was deep-cut and a round end which was much shallower, reducing to nothing. What gave the game away was that these Ds were grouped into clusters, ranging from one to nine. Here then was the making of a decimal system. In some cases, a circular punchhole, formed by means of a cylindrical reed”
Otherwise as other scientist noticed the sumerian put biger numbers on the left side !
In my opinion, the signs resemble that sumerian proto-cuneiform because of a large cultural difussion along time.Due of the fact that allmost all signs are symilar to that sumerian they interpreted the tablet as beeing sumerian (included Rumen Kolev/Bulgaria/Varna/2010
A.Falkenstein, A.A.Vaiman, Rumen Kolev gave one of the best interpretations of the tablet message (interpreting not reading as long as we have no true writing ). Mr. Marco Merlini analasided the signs, for every sign he found 20-50 corespondences in world writings. But not depassed this stage and was not capable to extract tinyest meaning out of the tablet’s signs. Mainly cause he remain fixed on Vinca-Turdas signary on the tablet wich is truly and far unreal.
I tried to interpret them using sumerian proto cuneiform signs and Aegean writings signs and syllabograms.I obtained consistent meaning interpretations (same as scientists above, with slight differences on sign interpretations). Be aware : “test interpretations” or “probes”!
Even an age around 2.700 B.C. is nquestionable, because I found myself details wich appeared in writing much later : – H-like sign exactly Aegean PA3, ~2.000 B.C./cannanite,old hebrew Heth shape~1.000 B.C.
Not present in any early writings, it appeared as capital D shape only much-much later in archaic greek alphabets/Chalcis. Another D-shaped sign, proto-canaanite dalet: From
Ioannis K. KENANIDIS, Evangelos C. PAPAKITSOS, sustain the theory that Aegean protolinear appeared under direct influence of sumerian migrants wich were early minoans in Crete. NOTE Very-very interesting:
– the shape of sumerian proto-cuneiform sign GAR “food ration/bread” is as capital D with additional paralel stroke inside. From cdli.ucla.edu › tools › archsigns
See the sign in the middle/right (the compund sign is GU:”to eat”):
GAR GAR [FORMER] wr. GAR “former, retired” aĝarak [FLUID] wr. a-ĝar; ĝa2-ar; ĝar “depilation fluid” gar [HEAP] wr. gar “to heap up” Akk. garānu ĝar [PLACE] wr. ĝar; ĝa2; ĝa2-ar; ĝa2ĝar; ĝarar; mar; ĝa2ĝarar “to put, place, lay down; to give in place of something, replace; to posit (math.)” Akk. šakānu Signs KU+GAR ? From The Chaldean Account Of Genesis (Illustrated Edition) books << There are two principal or key-words, naqbi and kugar; the first of which means “a channel,” and is more particularly applied to the canals with which Babylonia was intersected and watered, while the second is the compound ideograph which literally signifies “minister” or “servant of work.”>>
– egyptian sign “T”=”loaf of bread” is a horizontal D
– Aegean writings used for volume units an D-like sign.
This observation can converge to the conclusion that due probably of cultural diffusion and/or large-scale commerce, there was a common sign for food rations or units ! So there are some slight chances that our sign “D” was used as sumerian proto cuneiform sign GAR=NINDA=food ration/Bread ! Also the round signs are not twoo signs for ten (wich in proto cuneiform are imprinted) but if traced, rather: From cdli.ucla.edu › tools › archsigns 2(LAGAB~a) wich from my recollection would be “NIGIN”
If so, Tartaria tablets could be the best ever hard evidence to sustain their theory. . If the tablets were inscribed in Aegean bronze age, one must give an explanation how the scribe new some sumerian signs from 1.000 years back in the past (1.700 Aegean-2.700 Sumerian proto-cuneiform). Even worse: if were written when appeared alphabets in Levant, Anatolia and Greece (1.000 B.C. alphabets-2.700 B.C. proto-cuneiform ! 2.000 years apart !) Remember, or be aware that all sumerian proto-cuneiform signs were not known by minoans nor by mycaenians or greeks, tablets were digged and come to light after 1900 ! In antiquity there were not libraries !
From https://www.thoughtco.com/proto-cuneiform-earliest-form-of-writing-171675 Proto-cuneiform writing was first identified on nearly 400 impressed clay tablets found in the sacred temple precinct of Eanna in the southern Mesopotamian city of Uruk. These were found during the early 20th century excavations by C. Leonard Woolley, and first published in 1935. All of them date to the very end of the Uruk period [3500 t0 3200 BC] and the Jemdet Nasr phase [3200 to 3000 BC].
What is intriguing me much more is the fact that apparently the tablets presents itself as a pile, collection of different type and categories signs, from different areas and time origin: pure pictographic, ideograms/logograms, syllabograms and letters.
From M.Merlini/Tartaria tablets: books.google.ro › books Web results Acta Terrae Septemcastrensis Magazine “It consists probably of a mix of logograms, ideograms, pictograms and only some phonetic elements occasionally and marginally marked”
From www.biblicaltraining.org › library “Both Egyptian and Sumerian writing retained both ideograms and syllabic phonograms right … developed the added connotation of a mixed pictographic-logographic and syllabic script”
Covering from Mesopotamia to Levant/Syro-Phoenicia, Anatolia and Aegean areas. This complex and messy situation logically increase very much the possibility that a person toward nowdays with unknown motivation or goal to display this bunch of signs. I took in account all possible situations, including some fantastic ones as tablets beeing written by a high scientific ranked catholic priest or a relative of Zsofia Torma, eg. brother epigraphist Karoly Torma or somebody else in the iminence of receiving her title of doctor in science.In fact the paper certifying this was not received by her in hand when alive !
DDoc “latin abbreviation for decretorum doctor=professor in theological doctrine” Hera:”greek & latin for Lady”. In fact many scientists hypotheside that the “writer” was not a scribe and possible allmost illiterate. I advance even stress that the person at most had poor knowledge of greek and latin. =================
IN CONCLUSION:
Somebody, much later than sumerian proto-cuneiform sign’s time, tried to imitate proto cuneiform signs. Not without success, because some top-level scientists were blinded or fooled by the proto cuneiform-like, general appearance.They noted that the “scribe” not followed sumerian technique structure and management of the signs, + tried to imitate numbers, but not succeded because sumerians not inscribed/traced the numbers but imprinted. Also the ‘scribe” was not aware enough to know that the signs “H”-like has not the shape of proto cuneiform signs GA2 or KU but rather close to Aegean syllable PA3 or proto-canaanite heth or archaic greek heta/eta or etruscan and archaic latin H. He made a bunch/pile of signs originated from very different writing sistems and periods of time. Not at first sight, but for me is evident that on every of the three tablets, therea are three types/categories of signs: – pictographic – ideogram/logogram -like – syllabogram/letter – like
From magyar-megmaradas.eoldal.hu › tib… A Magyar-Megmaradásért – Our history – Tibor E. Barath: THE … · The testimony of the Tatárlaki (Tartaria) tablets. 1. … “The sound-signs appearing on the round tablet are, in our opinion, not Sumerian picture-signs, but more advanced carved signs.”
From www.frathwiki.com › Talk:Paleo-Eu… Talk:Paleo-European history overview – FrathWiki “The only items that look like early writing are the Tartaria tablets, and these are utterly atypical and probably spurious ”
What had the supposed scribe in mind, and what was his motivation to proceed this way ? To show his vast knowledge or to show the principles anf evolution of writing? Out of upper half of the round tablet, the rest of the signs maybe had a religious role as liturgical aids in religious rituals (as nowdays priest are using different books)
From Language Isolates – Page 40 – Google Books Result books.google.ro › books “Discussions of evidence for early writing and language in Europe often invoke three clay tablets found in 1961 at the Rumanian site of Tartaria with symbols that some have described as early writing or proto-writing. These objects were found in a pit that may have been of ritual significance, but the archaeological context is somewhat murky, and therefore dating is insecure. They may have come from ca. 4000 bce or ca. 2500, but the issue is still debated (for reassessment of the archaeological context and much of ensuing debate, see Zanotti 1983, Merlini and Lazarovici 2008).”
As a Church we have a ‘language’ that helps us put expression to the moments of grace that mark our lives. This language is expressed in symbols and rituals (which are beyond words) and also, of course, in words that help us communicate the mystery of our relationship with the Divine. This is the language of the liturgy. Let’s look at a few of these symbols:”
From Not Just Counters: Clay Tokens and Ritual Materiality in the … asu.pure.elsevier.com › publications › not-just-counters.
” In the ancient Near East, clay tokens were used in temples, human burials, pilgrimage shrines, and ritual caches, which indicates that tokens served in ritual contexts and not just as counters. Cross-culturally, worshipers utilize small clay objects for ceremonial purposes, such as pilgrims’ tokens. Clay absorbs spiritual power at shrines in many cultures, making it a significant material for ritual offerings, blessings, or protection. Worshipers place clay tokens at shrines or take them home for family members and sick persons to touch or consume. Similar material contexts suggest that ancient people in the Near East used some clay tokens to gain merit from deities for prosperity, health, and religious devotion.”
Careful/ Attention ! This post is not a decipherment or reading of any actual written content of Tartaria tablets. Given that the signs do not belong to a single writing system but to several, the page has a purely didactic character. It has the role of trying and testing different writings, in the idea that the tablets would have used one of them. The signs on the tablets belong to several writing systems over a long period of time and which have been used in different geographical areas. In none of the trials did the signs fall into a single type of writing, there always remained signs that came from other writings (or as coming from the unknown). Most of the signs come from the Sumerian proto-cuneiform -shaped ones. The signs in the upper half of the round tablet seem to come from archaic Greek writing. This “collection” of signs seems to be the fruit of one’s rich imagination. As A. Falkenstein and A. A. Vaiman found, (this is also my firm opinion) the author was not a scribe, he had only vague notions about writing in general, and it is not known what he intended or he was after. There are many elements of inconsistency as well as others that take the tablets out of the usual patterns and norms of honest logic, writing and intentions. ========= Of course is about Tartaria tablets. It is not like a plane crash with hundreds of passengers on board, but something of another nature and far much worse. Because science, our understanding of cultural developement (particularly writing) is implied or even hard hitted and many researchers in the field are involved. Possible beautiful stories and neolithic-related scenarios (Lady of Tartaria) must be abandonded or at least changed. PARTICULARITIES, FLAGRANT DEVIATIONS FROM A NATURAL, NORMAL STRUCTURATION OF DISPLAYED SIGNS, OTHERWISE NECESSARY TO TRANSMIT A MESSAGE, AND EVEN OUTMOST WEIRD ASPECTS DEFYING WHATEVER LOGIC OR PLAUSIBLE EXPLANATIONS. There are many clues/signs and hard evidences that something wrong, intended or not, happened in an unknown past when Tartaria tablets were made. Don’t know why, so many scientists wich were leaning on the subject, did not noticed at all many aspects wich are allmost “shouting” themselves .Normaly this not become visible at the first glance and result after analising throughly the signs. To begin, I will focuss and detailing the first striking one. Not in first moments, but if one ponder and analise not much more than the sign shapes, will remark that every tablet is using different type or category of signs, (but alike inside a tablet), if you want, pertaining to three main categories: – the undrilled tablet has on it pure pictographic signs. Eg. goat picture signfy goat. – the rectangular/oblong tablet with hole has on it ideograms wich could be as well logograms, even syllabograms. Eg. donkey-like head, is in sumerian sign AMAR/calf wich was used also for sun-god, Aegean cat-head sign MA wich they say that MA comes from AMAR, meaning Mother (Goddess). – the round, drilled tablet wich have signs mainly of same shape. The sign shapes has remote origin in sumerian proto cuneiform signs, but were used in Aegean, Canaanite, Phoenician, Anatolian (carian!) and archaic Greek writings. (This happened as took place a large, continous and strong cultural difussion wich happened along time). In the last ones writings : in Aegean as syllabograms and in canaanite, phoenician and greek as pure letters. Eg: ladder sign with three rungs: – sumerian proto cuneiform-like sign Ku – Aegean syllabogram (Linear A &B syllabogram PA3 – cannanite, paleo- hebrew, phoenician HETH – archaic greek Heta-Eta Note: The round tablet has on it in underside right quadrant, 2 complex ideograms. Me, as well everybody would expect that a scribe would use to comunicate one and the same type of writing, namely that one used in his time and area. Why the scribe or writer choose to proceed differently ? Total mistery. Possible explanations: – The tablets were used as paraphernalia, items/adds used in religious rituals, not intended to other more mundane practical porposes (eg. goods recordings). – One want to show to others his knowledges/cultural achievements or the principles and evolution of writing. The signs from all three tablets as a whole, not mach entirely any known writing sistem. Even if most of the signs could be found in the raw shape in sumerian proto-cuneiform or partly in Aegean writings and Anatolian alfabets. I made interpreting/reading attempts testing many languages.Best result were using proto-sumerian cuneiform and Aegean writings. I encountered great difficulties with Anatolian (carian) due of scarce knowlege of carian language and writing. Another particular aspect. All 3 tablets were treated as a set written at the same time by same person. Due the fact that there are no similar inscriptions the set is a real singleton. No other tablets to compare with or use as aids.Note that for Cretan hierogliphic, Linear A and Linear B (from wich only Linear B is partly deciphered) scientists has at their disposal different numbers (tens hundreds and thousends) of tablets. Please compare the difficulties encountered with deciphering Aegean writings for wich we had at disposal many tablets and allready tens of years of research and top-level scientists: https://itsallgreektoanna.wordpress.com/2019/01/29/a-very-short-introduction-to-the-undeciphered-aegean-writing-systems/ Another aspect, noticed (in my recollection only by me): – the whole bunch of signs contain signs wich cover a great geographic area (Sumer, Levant, Anatolia, Aegean) and a large time span (3.000-2.200-500 B.C.?). In a way not accesible to an individual in past but as much accesible as we go toward nowdays time. The hardest question wich need an answer is: – How, when, where and who on Earth could know so many sumerian proto-cuneiform-like signs ? Until now, most of researchers took tablets (in a sumerian proto-cuneiform approach) as a set/whole unit and tried to interpret them together as 3 folowing pages of a book. In my opinion this was a wrong approach. Possible every tablet has its definite own role in an religious ritual or simply used as religious holy items. Many scientists allready noticed (me also), that the so-called “scribe” was not a real scribe and has no neccessary knowledge level to write.I say rather a trader or kind of (itinerant?) priest. But….upper row on the round tablet strikingly get in evidence. Cause there are signs wich were used in archaic greek alphabets. So in that mixture of signs could have a short line with real writing. Possible the autor intended to hide the tree in the wood .Note that Mr. Marco Merlini was the first one to detect that this portion could be covered by the other tablet when both were worn as a necklace. This possibility has great implications, in the first row upon presumed age of the tablets. If was on the verge that a new religion to be introduced in a new teritory, one must be cautios on the people impact. Eg. “HP” signs could be for Hera,Heros, Heracles or simply greek/latin hera/ hero:” LADY,GODDES/LORD,GOD”
Careful/ Attention ! This post is not a decipherment or reading of any actual written content of Tartaria tablets. Given that the signs do not belong to a single writing system but to several, the page has a purely didactic character. It has the role of trying and testing different writings, in the idea that the tablets would have used one of them. The signs on the tablets belong to several writing systems over a long period of time and which have been used in different geographical areas. In none of the trials did the signs fall into a single type of writing, there always remained signs that came from other writings (or as coming from the unknown). Most of the signs come from the Sumerian proto-cuneiform -shaped ones. The signs in the upper half of the round tablet seem to come from archaic Greek writing. This “collection” of signs seems to be the fruit of one’s rich imagination. As A. Falkenstein and A. A. Vaiman found, (this is also my firm opinion) the author was not a scribe, he had only vague notions about writing in general, and it is not known what he intended or he was after. There are many elements of inconsistency as well as others that take the tablets out of the usual patterns and norms of honest logic, writing and intentions. ======= Scientists were focussed on the folowing main issues:
Place of origin
Age
The place in the World writing developement
Kind of writing, true writing ?
My opinion is that the shape of signs are only reflecting the general shape of that proto-cuneiform ones. In fact, and more exactly reflect the sumerian philum.This influence could be seen in Aegean, Anatolian and Phoenician writings. See Non-scribal Communication Media in the Bronze Age Aegean and … books.google.ro › books
See hypothesis of sumerian origin of Aegean Proto-Linear writing/G.Kenanidis & E.Papakitsos). From (PDF) Cretan Hieroglyphics & Protolinear Script | Giannhs …www.academia.edu › Cretan_Hieroglyphics_and_Protolin..
Scientists noticed the relation between Crete/minoans and Anatolia/Luwians, in Lnear A and B writings. From https://images.app.goo.gl/gJyTtYxVyF6iGdwbA Minoan World (1900-1425 î.Hr.)
———————————————— The signs on tablets are reflecting a chain influence of writing developement: Sumerian proto-cuneiform > Cretan hieroglyphic, Linear A/B > Anatolian/Phoenician/Archaic greek alphabets Note that the time of above writings was: – 3.500-3.000 B.C./sumerian proto-cuneiform – 2.200-2.000 B.C./ Cretan hieroglyphic 2.000-1.500 BC Linear A – 1.200-500 B.C. /Anatolian and greek archaic alphabets
——————————– There are two main posibilities : – the tablets are modern artefacts (so many signs from extensive area and large time-span much easy accesible toward our time) – genuine Anatolian-Aegean ones (material support/clay physical condition) The sign analisis is not definitely pointing exactly to one of Anatolian or Aegean areas, so the place of origin cannot be precisely defined. (?slightly toward Anatolia ?) The time roughly between 2500-500 B.C., much likely around 1000-500 B.C. Some Anatolian signs show an ancient sumerian influence.
It seem that the scribe was not a scribe by profession; he cannod handle and use properly so many signs used in Anatolia. We must be aware that only carians used some 4 kind of different alphabets (Mylasa, Egypt etc); Add to these: Lidian, Lician, Pamphilian, Palaic, Phrygian ones. Possible only one portion is containing true writing (“HD DDoc”- sequence on the round tablet, wich could be read using archaic greec alphabets). If the round tablets was traced by an carian, there are no chances to be read by other in the World than Mr. Ignacio Adiego. ================ Example: ===============
STAMPED AMPHORA HANDLES FROM TEL MIKHAL (TEL MICHAL) DONALD T. ARIEL
file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/E89_91.pdf A significant number of stamps with an eta-rho ligature have been published. However, these stamps may belong to different groups. Grace (1971:93, No. 77) described one group of similar—but circular—stamps as Samian, and maintained that the monogram stood for Hera or her sanctuary.
books.google.ro › books Indo-European Linguistics: An Introduction James Clackson — 2007 · Language Arts & Disciplines eat Hittite ed- (edmi T eat’) Latin ed- (edd ‘I eat’) Sanskrit ad- (addnti ‘they eat’) Greek ed- ( edomai … On the majority rule principle, it has been usual to reconstruct *d for this sound in PIE.
?? DDon, Δωδὠν=DODON, Dodon(e)? All cities of ancient Greece. Ancient and modern Greek cities zizuhotel.ru › home › Thailand
The classical city-state in Ancient Greece included not only a settlement, but also … Dodona – the sanctuary of Zeus (Dodon) in Ancient Greece, located in Epirus .
Sumerian proto cuneiform sign KU <visa> Aegean sign PA3, and
Sumerian proto cuneiform sign ZAG <visa> Aegean sign LABRYS ===================
First sign is Cretan hieroglyphics PA3 sign: From Prehistoric writings in Greece Linear A, Linear B, Cretan hieroglypphics http://www.kairatos.com.gr/linear1.htm
<<• lik ‘(phonetic value)’ : *um ku -o- ‘wolf’ (IEW 1178-
1179; de Vaan 2008: 353). An orphaned phonetic value
with no motivation in Sumerian. The sign is the logogram
for DOG (Sum. ur; cf. ur-bar-ra ‘wolf,’ lit. ‘outer dog’). In
the Sumerian cryptography known as UD.GAL.NUN the sign KU substitutes for DOG (Krebernik 1998: 300; cf.
*cWö(n) ‘dog’). – also root LIK is the same root present in LYCos:”wolf” (sparkling shining eyes in the night) ————————
From The Materiality of Divine Agency books.google.ro › books Beate Pongratz-Leisten, Karen Sonik – 2015 – Religion < And, “[t]o the extent that shine is a signal of purityand sacredness, the shining vessel … term ku(-g) occurs as a component in terms for metals such as silver (kù–babbar) … Perhaps the Sumerian perception of gold and silver followed a similar …>
From Riches Hidden in Secret Places: Ancient Near Eastern Studies … books.google.ro › books Thorkild Jacobsen, I. Tzvi Abusch – 2002 – History
… Sumerian word /ku(g)/ is usually translated as “shining, bright, clean, pure,” or … metal,” which can be yellow (kug-sig17 “gold”) or white (kug-bab- bar “silver”). ——————— So, 1-st step was that sumerian sign Ku (whatever language was spoken) has the first meaning in Crete, associated with the shine of metals !
This happened because there was an intense exploitation and trade of metals between Near-East,Anatolia (see Uluburun) and Cyprus/Crete, beginning with copper, bronze and finishing with silver and gold.
<Sumerian Dictionary. Every letter … In phonetic transliterations, the English spelling sought to approximate the Sumerian … Metals = ZAG (the shine of metals).>
THE SHAPE IS EXACTLY THAT OF THE LABRYS !
From Sumerian Lexicon – IS MU is.muni.cz › jaro2013 › PAPVB_13 › Halloran_version_3
PDF by JA Halloran <…(derives from zag, ‘boundary, border, district’, just as þúb relates to gùb).>> Note This ZAG sign wich by sumerians was related to boundarym border… would be related as later Horos “boundary,border,district”; “Horos Dios”
From Bronze-age glyphs and writing in ancient … – Bharatkalyan97
<<Impressions of two cylinder seals (Sumer) and glyph of ‘ingot’. The person at the feet of the eagle-winged person carries a (metal) dagger on his left-hand, clearly demonstrating the link with this metalware catalog.Note the one-horned bull below the person who has his foot on mountain-summit. Sumerian sign for the term ZAG ‘purified precious‘. The ingot had a hole running through its length Perhaps a carrying rod was inserted through this hole.>>
CRETANS USED LABRYS ICON EVEREYWHERE AND WHENEVER WANTED TO APPLY THE MARK AND SEAL OF HIGH ABOVE CELESTIAL GODS, ENTITIES OR THEIR REPRESENTATIVE ON EARTH, AND THE DIRECT MEANING ASSOCIATED TO THIS ICON WAS “SHINING-PURE-SACRED”
From https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ojoa.12152 The First 'European' Writing: Redefining the Archanes Script
In fact, no matter what languages were spoked in Sumer or Crete, and no matter of exact phonetic values of the signs, here and there, the meaning was the same, cause they needed in first degree and used those signs for their everyday life necesities: trade and religion.
———————————————
From The Nostratic Macrofamily: A Study in Distant Linguistic …
Proto—Nostratic *dzag—/*dzag— ‘to strike, to beat, to drive (away)’: A. C. Proto-Kartvelian *dzlger— ‘to beat, to strike’: … Sumerian zag ‘to drive away, to expel‘.
From Etruscan Hungarian List 7 – T. Majlath’s Pages
Careful/ Attention ! This post is not a decipherment or reading of any actual written content of Tartaria tablets. Given that the signs do not belong to a single writing system but to several, the page has a purely didactic character. It has the role of trying and testing different writings, in the idea that the tablets would have used one of them. The signs on the tablets belong to several writing systems over a long period of time and which have been used in different geographical areas. In none of the trials did the signs fall into a single type of writing, there always remained signs that came from other writings (or as coming from the unknown). Most of the signs come from the Sumerian proto-cuneiform -shaped ones. The signs in the upper half of the round tablet seem to come from archaic Greek writing. This “collection” of signs seems to be the fruit of one’s rich imagination. As A. Falkenstein and A. A. Vaiman found, (this is also my firm opinion) the author was not a scribe, he had only vague notions about writing in general, and it is not known what he intended or he was after. There are many elements of inconsistency as well as others that take the tablets out of the usual patterns and norms of honest logic, writing and intentions. ======
Most of scientists interpreted “DDoo” sequence: – as sumerian proto-cuneiform numbers (e.g. A.Falkenstein, A.A. Vaiman); but a few, – as “Moon phases”(e.g. M.Merlini. R.Kolev) But sumerians never made numbers by tracing, only by pressing ! Only a few signs were made by tracing, (wich are only close to “pure D shape”), cause contain added inside some lines/strokes: GAR and SUR BUR See sign GAR: =========================== My interpretation of “D-sign” is: AN “EVOLVED,ADAPTED” SIMPLIFIED SHAPE OF THE SIGN GAR So: (simplified)=D, “GAR”
From ETCSL:ETCSLsignlist – University of Oxford etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk › edition2 › signlist GAR Borger: NIG2 ĝar, ni3, niĝ2, ninda, nindan, ša2
From A Descriptive Grammar of Sumerian – Universiteit Leiden openaccess.leidenuniv.nl › bitstream › handle › Binnenwerk-jagersma by AH Jagersma – <… verb ĝar ‘(to)place‘, >
From https://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com › …PDF
Sumerian Cuneiform English Dictionary 12013CT – bulgari-istoria
<< … NINDA2 | ĝar (gar) [2505x] = place, to put, lay down >> The Sumerian World Harriet Crawford · 2013 · History The identification of Sumerian nouns and verbs is, however, more straightforward. Sumerian … a subject, direct object and non- direct object (gar “to put” something on something) CONCLUSIONGAR: “Lay down” (rom.:” a se stabili, intinde” ——————- Signs “D D” = wi’ll read “GAR GAR“; What could mean “gar-gar”?
From Sumerian and Indo-European: a surprising connection http://new-indology.blogspot.com/2015/05/sumerian-and-indo-european-surprising.html
<< Sum. gar ‘to heap up’, gargar ‘accumulation‘, PIE *gar- ‘to collect, heap‘, Greek ageiro (from *a-ger-yo)‘to gather, collect’, agorà ‘assembly, place of assembly, market-place’,gargara‘heaps, lots, plenty‘, Latin grex ‘flock, herd’,..>>
From https://rucforsk.ruc.dk › filesPDF
THE FINER STRUCTURE OF THE OLD BABYLONIAN MATHEMATICAL …by J HØYRUP
<illustrated by the terms ib-se-e and ba-se-e: Sumerian in pronunciation, … Accumulation is gar.gar, and subtraction a counting-off as in..>
From New Mathematical Cuneiform Texts books.google.ro › books Jöran Friberg, Farouk N.H. Al-Rawi – ..< kamarum to heap (= to add together)
From akira.ruc.dk › PublicationsPDF Til SaT({ og Janne 3 36 < Literally, the Sumerian gar-gar means something like “to lay down (gar) repeatedly“>
From Chapter II link.springer.com › content › pdf “(AHw “schichten, haufen”), to which correspond the Sumerian term gar.gar” engl.”layers,heaps” rom.”straturi,gramezi”
From https://www.cambridge.org › books
The Reduplicated Present (Chapter 4) – Origins of the Greek Verb
<..the positive evidence of the reduplicated …on γαργαίρω ‘swarm with‘< *gar-gar-i̯e/o > (rom.:”a roi, misuna“)
From List of cuneiform signs – Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org › wiki › List_of_cuneiform_signs
Cuneiform is one of the earliest systems of writing, emerging in Sumer in the late fourth … 804, 529, 403, NIGIN(LAGAB+LAGAB, LAGAB.LAGAB), U+121B8 𒆸 …
From https://books.google.ro › books
The Class Reunion—An Annotated Translation and Commentary on the …
J. Cale Johnson, Markham J. Geller
… uruniginroaming around the city‘ 251 sahhirat duri = Sum. bad nigin roamingaround the walls‘ 251 sahhirat ugări = Sum. a- gar nigin .
From On Some Mesopotamian Early Dynastic Toponyms | Gebhard …http://www.academia.edu › On_Some_Mesopotamian_Early_Dynastic_Topon… <The Sumerian word /niĝin/ has the verbal meaning “to roam; to enclose, confine”>
CONCLUSION NIGIN : “roam, enclose, strong” ———————– ——- Entire sequence : Gar GarNigin : “accumulate, add together,plenty, swarm“ +“roam, enclose, strong” It seem that the is reffering to: a comunity, tribe swarm lay down, roam,gathering (enclosing,strong, stronghold?) Limba Romana: ..se pare ca se face referire la stabilirea, raspandirea =roirea si asezarea unei comunitati,trib (nomad, care cutreiera) ?intr-o incinta,fortareata?
—————–
Note In upper half of the tablet, on the left side we have sign “KU”, and also the meaning “lie down”.
From https://www.sumerian.org/sumerian.pdf <<ku: to base, found, build; to lie down (reduplication class) [KU archaic frequency: 64; concatenates 3 sign variants]. >> rom. lie down: “(a te)intinde, aseza”
In fact sign “KU” and sign “GAR”, where GAR has the same meaning (lay down) as KU
From https://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com › …PDF
Sumerian Cuneiform English Dictionary 12013CT – bulgari-istoria
<< … NINDA2 | ĝar (gar) [2505x] = place, to put, lay down >>
From Sumerian Vocabulary (G) – Ancient Near Eastern Studies 102 … http://www.studyblue.com › … › Pottorf › Sumerian Vocabulary (g) << [guza = KU.GAR]. chair, stool, throne >>
From MR-a-thon – MrWeb http://www.mrweb.com › countries The Eternal Fire of Baba Gurgur (father of firein Kurdish) is a name used to describe … Iraq was home to the earliest known civilization on Earth: the Sumerian.
From THE ANCIENT EMPIRES OF THE NEAR EAST – The Cabinet of … http://www.thingstud.io › history-of-mankind <<… courses of the Euphrates and the Tigris, was the homeof a settled people. … The district of Sumer must have been in settled occupation long before 5000 B.C. …>>
117. Gherga în Sumer – Originea Gherga origineagherga.blogspot.com › gher… “… au asanat mlaştinile şi au construit un sistem ingenios de canale de irigaţii); în oraşele Sumeriene – la fel ca în oraşele Civilizaţiei Gargar / Ghaggar din N.Vestul Indiei”
“Datorită climatului şi motivelor comerciale, Gargarii care în timp s-au mutat de pe Masivul Ida la poalele sale – spre coasta Mării Egee – au întemeiat Gargara acolo, la începuturi ei rămânând în legături cu Ghergarii din Caucaz, inclusiv din Gargar / acum Gerger din Armenia. ……..Gargara a fost populată şi de Pelasgii Lelegi, din a căror denumire a apărut Grecul “leuka” = “lucire” pentru “alb” – ei fiind strămoşii unor Lichi / Liciani, Lizi / Lidiani şi Spartani – care vorbeau limba Luviană (ce folosea Lud pentru Lidia, Lukka pentru Likia, etc.; e de observat că în Punjab / N Indiei – din fostul Bazin Ghaggar – acum cel mai mare oraş e Ludhiana.”
Studying Tartaria tablets, I noticed overhelming similarities of the signs on them (aproximately 90% !) with that sumerian proto-cuneiform ones. I made also “didactic” test-readings on Tartaria tablets, in order to see if we have one of Aegean writing on them, the result beeing that noted closeness was lower than thatwith sumerian. But Aegean signs are either reflecting a relation (much distant than that of Tartaria tablets) with sumerian proto-cuneiform ones. So, Aegean signs beeing supposed of ultimate Sumerian origin. ——————————— Then the research of E.Papakitsos and G.Kenanidhs come to reinforce the distant relation I’ve detected.
First, they advanced the hypothesis that at least part of minoans were early sumerian settlers:
From https://www.sumerianz.com/pdf-files/sjss2(4)33-44.pdf << Considering the local (Mediterranean) origins of the Minoan inhabitants that have been found so far (see 3.5.1),the initial proposal about the settlement of Sumerian populations in large numbers (Kenanidis and Papakitsos, 2013a) is not anthropologicallysupported, at least not in the sense that entire families of Sumerians immigrated to Crete. What may have happened though is analogous to the Grand Ancient Greek Colonization, where thesettlerswere mostly unmarried men, getting brides from the local population after the settlement (Manfredi and Braccesi, 1997). …….Therefore, the SOT as expressed herein argues that the settlers from East that arrived in Crete during the 28th–26th centuries BCE (Douvitsas, 2005; Kyriakidis, 1971; Kyriakidis and Konstas, 1974b) were people of Sumerian cultural background:merchants (knowing the routes), craftsmen (carpenters, metal-workers, seals-makers, etc.) and scribes (actually accountants and administration clerks) in moderate numbers. The advanced level of their civilization compared to that of the local Neolithic population could have easily resulted in the complete adoption of their culture by the locals, during the eight-centuries long (2700-1900 BCE) Prepalatial era. >>
Upon their hypothesis, there existed a set of signs “Aegean Proto-Linear” wich preceded all Aegean known writings. The above authors paired some Aegean signswith their sumerian counterparts. The pairs were probably not the best ones and the result was not overhelming convincing me.
From http://www.cclbsebes.ro › 03_IKKenanidis_ECPapakitsos An Interpretation of the Malia Stone Inscription in Terms of the … “Cretan Protolinear script, which is considered herein as the original script that all the Aegean scripts evolved from. ”
See Minoan Sumerian Giannhs Kenanidhs Evangelos C Papakitsos https://www.academia.edu/11423494/Minoan_Sumerian <<The hypothesized Protolinear script consists of 120 syllabograms of the V and CV patterns, as they have been found in Linear-A/B scripts, one for each syllable of a dialect close to the Archaic Sumerian language. …. So, we have a script of simplified icons (signs) depicting items, where the phonetic value of each sign is related to the Archaic Sumerian word for the depicted item. Many of them are related to the associated signs of the Cretan Hieroglyphic, also to the Sumerian pictograms and sometimes to the cuneiform equivalents. >> —————————————— When I tested to find my own pairs of signs, I was quite dissapointed to find far fewer pairs than expected. So, even if some of early minoans were of sumerian origin, i.e. sumerian migrants, seems that they not come with their proto-writing signs in a bag. This is why was not found in Crete genuine sumerian proto-writing or writing. My opinion is that the transmission was lessdirectand much mediated, by a culturaltransmission, realised in the course of the time. + they met different kinds of local people. Writing was not an activity and goal per se, must fulfill their practical needs Writing appeared in complex, high-developed societies with a hierarchical social structure, having at the origin the necesity of comunication and distribution of goods.Economical activity and trade eased the the developement and spreading.
From file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/Minoan_Sumerian%20(1).pdf <<Once the Minoan authorities / society had decided to develop theircommerce, both domestically and overseas, they would inevitably have to deal with the contemporary
international best-practices (i.e., sealing of goods and keeping records). ……Sumerians proved to be excellent traders and colonists throughout the entire Near East, even at the end of the Uruk period [56]. According to Kramer [57]: “…by the third millennium BC, there is good reason to believe that Sumerian culture and civilization had penetrated, at least to some extent, as far East as India and as far West as the Mediterranean, as far South as Ancient Ethiopia and as far North as the Caspian”. Crete was known to Mesopotamia at least since the era of Sargon the Great, who lived approximately between the 24th and the 23rd centuries BC [58]. >>
Otherwise writing (in fact proto-writing) appeared independentely in different places in the World, some-how at the same time (around 3.500 B.C.). Aegeans not stayed still, waiting for an saviour with a book under the arm, to fall from the sky. If they took the writing entirely, as a “package” from Near East, probably nowdays all of us, Europeans would write with ideograms as chinese does. ———————————- EVEN FOR SAME SOCIETY, EVOLUTION OF WRITING IS SUPPOSING: – beggining from pictograms – these become to be much sketches, simplified, – from beginning, they attached phonetic values related to word root, toward logograms/ideograms – aquired many meanings, – appeared combined=complex ideograms – in short time, they forgot the original shape either the meanings of the original signs picture(word)=logogram > simplified shape; word root >+ + root-derived associated meanings=ideograms > mainly lost orig. word, remain derived meanings > id+id=complex ideogr.=++ complex meanings
syllable/syllabogram > letters,Alphabetic writing ; Alph.today:eM,Ai,eN >MAN ——————————– If one try to translate this complex phenomenom, even slowly trying not to disturb it, in a place where many languages are spoken, then at least you EXPECT TO HAVE SOMETHING DIFFERENT. So, we could NOT FIND EXACTLY THE SAME: – pictogram, sign shape – associated meaning/word – innitial/original word root IN ANOTHER ENVIROMENT, – ! root=phonetic value=syllable could come from other (out of many) word-meanings of the sign !
ONE CANNOT MOOVE A HOUSE FROM URUK TO CRETE WITHOUT FALLING OR MISSING AT LEAST SOME TILES ! Of course, not so simple/easy as the above authors innitial expected, they realised that writing must be fitted on the particular, local conditions; they have to compare how adaptation worked and evolved:
From file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/Minoan_Sumerian%20(1).pdf <<The comparative study was conducted in parallel including four factors:
the depicted object and its sign of the Aegean script,
the relation and similarity of the previous sign to equivalent Sumerian ones,
the assigned phonetic value of the sign of the Aegean script,
the similarity of the previous phonetic value to Sumerian words denoting the depicted object. At least three factors should match in order to confirm the relation. …….. It is a typical sample of 18 signs, among the most easily recognizable and readily interpretable ones. Provided the reader can recognize that every sign is quite close to a sketch of the depicted item, then this sample, comprising about 20% of the Linear-A and of the Linear-B syllabic repertoire, is statistically enough to prove that the Sumerian influence is not a coincidence and therefore the origins of the Aegean scripts can be of oriental origin. >> ===============================
AS DANUBIAN CULTURE WAS CLOSE THAN SUMER FOR CRETANS, WHY NOT AN DANUBIAN INSPIRATION ?
Timisoara/Romania- Crete 1.200 Km ; Crete-Vinca(Belgrad) 1.127Km; Crete-Al Warka (uruk) 1.944 Km
“The presumption that decorated tokens appearing from approximately the middle of the 5th millennium B.C. in Uruk (but only from co . 3500 B.C. in Iron and Syria) led directly to pictographic script is the element of Schmandt-Besserat’s work which has been most debated .Comparing the graphic forms, she was able to propose the correspondence of o large number of decorated tokens with later ideograms, and these identifications are now moving through the secondary literature as if they had been justified or even in part accepted by experts. The basic argument against such facile identifications is that we know graphic similarity, in the absence of contextual proof, con be notoriously misleading, placing as it has Sumerian scribes as for afield as Rumania and China”
Despite Danubian/Vinca civilisations made great advances toward true-writing, they ceased to exist just before the supposed discovery wich woul be expected (3.500-4.000 B.C.). Until then, sure it influenced Aegean Civilisation, but how, and at wich extent nobody know. “Vinca script” gathered an impressive collection of elementary signs, wich were first stages of a Proto-Linear script, but not reached the “proto-writing” stage. Probably they not knew what will follow and be the options. They had no necessary time for testing, in order to choose between ideographic or syllabary/alphabetic writing. Missing the initial pictographic stage slowed-down the advancing, even acted as a barrier.
From file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/Minoan_Sumerian%20(1).pdf << However, it is normal for a script to evolve from pictorial signs(as the Sumerian pre-cuneiform and the Aegean writing signs too) into non-recognizable forms (as the late cuneiform), and rarely the reverse.
Beside thees above, geneticist found that minoan had their roots in Anatolia and Eastern Europe.
” Study results show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically highly similar – but not identical – and that modern Greeks descend from these populations. The Minoans and Mycenaeans descended mainly from early Neolithic farmers, likely migrating thousands of years prior to the Bronze Age from Anatolia, in what is today modern Turkey.
“Minoans, Mycenaeans, and modern Greeks also had some ancestry related to the ancient people of the Caucasus, Armenia, and Iran. This finding suggests that some migration occurred in the Aegean and southwestern Anatolia from further east after the time of the earliest farmers,” said Lazaridis.
While both Minoans and Mycenaeans had both “first farmer” and “eastern” genetic origins, Mycenaeans traced an additional minor component of their ancestry to ancient inhabitants of Eastern Europe and northern Eurasia. This type of so-called Ancient North Eurasian ancestry is one of the three ancestral populations of present-day Europeans, and is also found in modern Greeks.”
Anyway there is an insurmontable gap of allmost 1.000-2.000 years between Vinca script signs (5.000-4.000 B.C.) and Aegean Proto-Linear script (3.000 B.C.), so hard to consider kind of transmission. Note Tartaria tablets by no means, NOT pertain to Vinca Culture. An “determined!?” age as 5.300 B.C. is the most stupid joke I heard of. They are much later products, somewhere after beginning of sumerian proto-writingand toward Aegean proto-Linear, in the best scenario for an old age.
gjendem
![PDF] Uruk colonies and Anatolian communities : An interim report on the 1992-1993 excavations at Hacinebi, Turkey | Semantic Scholar](https://d3i71xaburhd42.cloudfront.net/81888eb3ebc3b87509d2621d344dbba430775b56/7-Figure1-1.png)
![Clay tokens mapped to the pictographs and numerical values assigned to them. (Source: Besserat/1977]](https://i0.wp.com/mathscitech.org/articles/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/001-dsb-1977-tokens-meaning_small-800x168.png)
From dr dud’s dicta 
Sign KU~a ——————————- From The Case for Euphratic Gordon Whittaker science.org.ge › old › moambe
ZAG~a 
ZAG~c 
GA’AR~b1
From 
– as sumerian proto-cuneiform numbers (e.g. A.Falkenstein, A.A. Vaiman); but a few, – as “Moon phases”(e.g. M.Merlini. R.Kolev) But sumerians 
GAR and 
SUR 
BUR See sign GAR: 
=========================== My interpretation of “D-sign” is: AN “EVOLVED,ADAPTED” 
LAGAB.jpg){kind=small}
2(LAGAB~a)
NIGIN
“
Tartaria tablets 
