Romanian verb “a mantui”(1). Etimology



All endeavour began after I wached on youtube the speach “Some reflections on stupidity/dumbness” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAbNhfCwLhk of Romanian renown scholar Andrei Plesu.

There he made an asertion that the name of one of the most revered monument of romanians, brand-new biggest Orthodox cathedral, ” Catedrala mantuirii neamului” is composed of three words, none of romanian origin, pointing that neam and mantuire is appearing in DEX (Romanian Explanation/Etymological Dictionary) the words neam and mantuire to have an hungarian origin.

From https://dexonline.ro/definitie/neam “Din magh. nem.” and https://dexonline.ro/definitie/mantuire “Din magh. menteni.

I was quite shocked and realised that it is an unforgivable and inexcusable mistake or lack of minimal linguistis knowledge and due of lasyness of our schollars.

Cause Danubian area is the very place of Old Europe (Vinca-Turdas, Cucuteni cultures).  See https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Indo-European_migrations.gif

Panonian plain and Carpathian Mountains area were inhabited before any of many Asian hordes raided Europe relentless one after another. Inhabited by thraco-dacian related people, and before by ancient populations, pre-Indo-European and after them, true Indo-Europeans. And one of the supposed pool and origin of Indo-European family of languages. https://aleximreh.wordpress.com/2014/10/19/old-europe-the-indoeuropean-homeland-the-aryan-urheimat/

arian home

c. 5000 bc. Homeland:  The Danube River valley (Wallachia and Hungary).

Panonian basin before 200-500 AD. from https://aleximreh.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/i2.jpg

and later (~ 100-200 A.D.) https://aleximreh.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/a2.jpg

Celts on Panonia

celts_in_iii_century_bc

******************************************** Romanian-English        Translation of “mantuire” in English, From https://context.reverso.net/translation/romanian-english/mantuire Noun: “salvation, redemption, saving, revivalism, peace-offerings, soul rapture-ready”

To start quite abruptly, I did not found something better than:

From Mihai-Silviu Chirilă: Mântuirea din DEXmihaisilviuchirila.blogspot.com › ma… „mântuire” provine de la manu („de mână”) și tenere („a ține”). … Interesanta originea neclara sau multipla a cuvantului “mantuire

The Romanian dictionaries consider ‘mântuire’ a loan word from the Hungarian menteni ‘to (get) free, to (self) save, to liberate from a deadlock’. Consulting the Hungarian Etymological Dictionary (1970) we find the verb ment ‘to free, guard, deliver, save, exit, run,’ but not a form menteni as such. This dictionary lists as the first attestation of ment dating around 1195 in the funerary song Halotti beszéd és könyörgés.

I’ve found:- https://translate.google.com/?hl=en#view=home&op=translate&sl=hu&tl=en&text=ment ment=”went” and https://translate.google.com/?hl=en#view=home&op=translate&sl=hu&tl=en&text=megment megment=”savehttps://www.dict.com/angol-magyar/menten mentén:”along”https://www.dict.com/angol-magyar/mentes mentés=”rescue, salvage

From save – English to Hungarian Meaning of save – hungarian.english …hungarian.english-dictionary.help › q=save HungarianEnglish menteni:”save” ; Also, hung. mentés :” rescue ,salvage, saving/save ,recovery ,lifesaving”  From https://glosbe.com/hu/en/ment%C3%A9 ;https://translate.google.com/?hl=en#view=home&op=translate&sl=hu&tl=en&text=ment%C3%A9s%20%3 A mentés=”save”

Other native hungarian not agree with this above opinion: Talk:Hungarian language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AHungarian_language#Jurchen_Mogher_and_Magyar:_Tungusic_elements

<< Important information is also, the Italian substratum and effect on the Romanian language, the Friauli dialect (linguistic continuity between Venetia – Istria – Dalmatia in the Roman times), this can be easily checked (Schuchardt: Der Vocalismus des Vulgarlateins. Leipzig 1868. II. 46). Some Hungarian loanwords from the Romanian language (they are reflecting the case mentioned above): Nému, aldui, aldasiu, fagadasiu, surzuita, birau, biru, kezesiu, oca, uca, orasiu, orasianu, feredeu, hiklenia, valciegu, hasna, keskeneu, mestesiugu, uricasiu, bulciu, gandu, haleu, hotar, holda, ileu, valmasiu, gazdaku, vama, chipu, chipzui, ravasiu, ravasiu de drumu, sáma, dare de sáma, catana, fagadau, lacui, lacasiu, mintui, mintuitor, vileag, siru, urlui, uiag, fel, felu, giulusiu, alénu, bintatuire, untuire, ingaduire, etc.

Quite interesting as long as hungarian tribes come to Europe one with turkic/altaic language (Magyars) and another with ugric (Hungars). From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians#Origin c. 830 to c. 895 Around 830, a rebellion broke out in the Khazar khaganate. As a result, three Kabar tribes of the Khazars joined the Hungarians and moved to what the Hungarians call the Etelköz, the territory between the Carpathians and the Dnieper River. The Hungarians faced their first attack by the Pechenegs around 854,[37] though other sources state that an attack by Pechenegs was the reason for their departure to Etelköz Entering the Carpathian Basin (c. 895) ! ! Cause they entered an already established pool of previ ous thousend years allready settled population . Wich for sure thought all populations of Earth what is happening with them afer death. Me: Until 955 were under Byzantinen empire influenced, and had an incipient form of christianism. They turn to christianism after 955.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_conquest_of_the_Carpathian_BasinBefore the arrival of the Hungarians, three early medieval powers, the First Bulgarian EmpireEast Francia and Moravia, had fought each other for control of the Carpathian Basin. Their language: Origin of word roots in modern Hungarian Uncertain 30% Uralic 21% Slavic 20% German 11% Turkic 9.5% Latin and Greek 6% Romance 2.5% Other known 1%

Weird, this mentes is identical with : -https://www.spanishdict.com/translate/MENTES?langFrom=es : – mentes:” to mention” and: – latin mentes:”mind” ……(wich in turn has the I.E. root MEN :”mind”( pre I.E. minoan MIN:”constant”), from wich come a constalation of words beginning from gr.menos:”mind,desireardorwishpurpose,anger,couragespiritvigor,powerstrengthforce,violence

” and meno:”stay, wait” https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BC%CE%AD%CE%BD%CF%89 ==============

<<Previous attempts to clarify the etymology of this word include suggestions offered by the Romanian theologians who offered a Latin solution for ‘mântuire’ from manes ‘the souls of dead’ and tueor, tueri ‘keep’, thus ´the keeping of the souls after death´. On the same direction is the solution through Latin manus ‘hand’ and teneō ‘to hold’.

Other theologians, among them Dumitru Staniloaie, consider ‘mântuire’ as related to the Latin mentes ´mind´ and tueor, tueri, expressing ´a change of mind, a renewal of consciousness´,  cognate with the Greek meta-noew  ’a change of mind, repent’,….>>

manutenere – Wiktionaryen.wiktionary.org › wiki › manutenere

  1. From Late Latin manūteneō (“I support”), from Latin manū (“with the hand”) + (“I hold”). PronunciationEdit. Rhymes: -ere. VerbEdit. manutenere. (transitive) 

..or the refined:

Hungarian, or rather substratum elements in Romanian?www.ceeol.com › search › article-detail… Rom. gând < Hu. gond; labă ~ láb, talpă < talp etc., while a mântui is explainable as a peculiar development of post-classical Lat. manu tueor ‘to heal by hand.

From www.diacronia.ro › pdfPDF Bibliografia românească de lingvistică – Diacronia PALIGA, SORIN, <<*Manu tuitus: mantuit = salvat de mâna Lui, rom. “saved (by His) hand” In honorem Onufrie Vinţeler,. 2011, 241–250 [mântui, mântuire, Mântuitor].Diacronia | Impavidi progrediamur!Diacronia is an online, open-access, peer-reviewed journal of historical linguistics.diacronia.ro >>

=========================================== But I begun from: Root *men- “to thinkmind.spiritual activity” >>> lat.*mén-ti-s ~ *mn̥-téy-s (“thought”); proto I-Iran *mántram m (religion)meditationchanting, and Root *men- “to stayremain” Derived terms:*mén-e-ti (root thematic present) Hellenic: *ménō Ancient Greek: μένω (ménō, “to stay, remain”)

Otherwise we have also: gr. manteuomai https://biblehub.com/greek/3132.htm?fbclid=IwAR2ASEMEK6O5s7n8_uTbcZ7XxdjTKv23CJxUkNmSsA_towHCRbMCSjxKAXM Definition: to divine
Usage: I divine, practice soothsaying, fortune telling, suggesting the fraud involved in the practice. ============================================

But MANTUIRE is one of (or both):

A) Manutenere, or/and manu+tueor, as keep by hand, MAINTAIN

3 – Etymological Dictionary of Spanishwww.spanishetym.com › directory· Translate this pageFrom ProtoIndoEuropean *menth2- ‘id.’ Indo-European … mantener (Verb) “to maintain” Borrowed from Medieval Latin manutenere ‘id.,’ literally “to hold by 

B)MAN(es)Tuor, ManTuit(us)

From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manes?fbclid=IwAR1IUriv5Q4QIBRoHvfTXh3SfJfA-vFHdmDGNjzy6z51J3mxyrBwaT2tvNA <<In ancient Roman religion, the Manes /ˈmeɪniːz/ or Di Manes are chthonic deities sometimes thought to represent souls of deceased loved ones. …….

The theologian St. Augustine, writing about the subject a few centuries after most of the Latin pagan references to such spirits, differentiated Manes from other types of Roman spirits:

Apuleius “says, indeed, that the souls of men are demons, and that men become Lares if they are good, Lemures or Larvae if they are bad, and Manes if it is uncertain whether they deserve well or ill… He also states that the blessed are called in Greek εὐδαίμονες [eudaimones], because they are good souls, that is to say, good demons, confirming his opinion that the souls of men are demons.>>

From https://www.wordsense.eu/tueor/?fbclid=IwAR1wnLdxyvpedJywdkBY_XTmfOq38B9JCsjgKior0A0W3ltA3qfCmu-XL6o tueor Alternative forms

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tueor Etymology

From Proto-Italic *toweōr, from Proto-Indo-European *tewH- (to look favorably, protect, observe”)

tueor (present infinitive tuērīperfect active tuitus sum); second conjugationdeponent

From https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tuitus tuitus (feminine tuitaneuter tuitum); first/second-declension participle

  1. defended Note: why + the other meanings of tueor as “compensate= redeeem”??

So “Keep up,maintain,preserve, guarddefendprotectsupportCOMPENSATE, The spirit,soul of the dead”

(otherwise https://www.google.com/search?q=definition+save&rlz=1C1GGRV_enRO887RO887&oq=definition+save&aqs=chrome..69i57j0j0i22i30j0i10i22i30j0i22i30l2j0i10i22i30j0i22i30.8913j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 “SAVE=(in Christian use) preserve (a person’s soul) from damnation”

Note: redemtion, redeeem<close meaning?>to compensate https://www.google.com/search?q=redeem&rlz=1C1GGRV_enRO887RO887&oq=redeem&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i67l2j0l5.4019j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 “redeem:” compensate for the faults or bad aspects of..” in religion:” save (someone) from sin, error, or evil.” “Compensate=REDEEM the SOUL

C) Man(eo) + tuit(us)

From https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/maneo?fbclid=IwAR1rirjF9cNeAZbetKjKi38Ciz34XelslzzTqrNczY4fy6dboyDaHH-2hKM << maneo Etymology From Proto-Indo-European *men- (“to stay, stand still”) (with mānsum influenced by mānsī), related to Persian ماندن‎ (mândan, “to remain”), Ancient Greek μένω (ménō, “I remain” Verb:maneō (present infinitive manēreperfect active mānsīsupine mānsum); second conjugation

  1. (intransitive) I stay, REMAIN, abide quotations ▼
  2. (transitive) I awaitwait for, expect (be in store for)Mors sua quemque manet. ― Death awaits everyone.
  3. (intransitive) I wait
  4. (intransitive) I continuelastendure ====================================
  5. Mantuit(us):” remain, last saved” ;”provide remaining, “REDEEMED REMAINING

??? www.jstor.org › stable
Rezultate de pe web
Arya IV – jstor
de la HW Bailey · 1963 ·
CLavv’a must now be connected with Latin mant- in mantu-s ‘ short mantle’, mantuitus ‘ cloaked ‘, mantica ‘ wallet ‘, mantellum ‘ covering ‘.

https://quizlet.com/at/398659693/lectio-29-flash-cards/ metuere fürchten (mentuo, mentui, Note:mistake? :mentuo, mentui?

Full text of “ELEMENTS OF THE SCIENCE OF LANGUAGE … https://archive.org/stream/dli.bengal.10689.18003/10689.18003_djvu.txt 170 § 148,^^he elements building up IndoEuropean languages . … Thus I.-E. •men-fids gives *mT}t6a The Latin mentui preserves the nasal and gives the … Slavic Church Slavic—Bulgarian Serbo- Illyrian Slavic Croatian — Slovenian Itusaian …

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/metuo#Latin Verb metuō (present infinitive metuereperfect active metuīsupine metūtum); third conjugation ….metuit

  1. fear, am afraid
  2. www.chegg.com › flashcards › deck
  3. Book 1, lines 12-33 Flashcards | Chegg.com
  4. Languages And Literatures · Elementary Latin. Practice cardsloading… Practice cards done … metuo, -ere, mentui, -utus. fear

From http://crodip.ffzg.hr/browsing.aspx?rj=hab&id=3590

CroatianLatin
MentenChlamys, dis, f. Veſtis ſuperior. 
Mentenecz. Chlamydula, æ, f. 
Mentuvanye zverhu cheſza na piſzmu. Cautio, onis, f. 
Mentui Bog. Avertat Deus. 
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/avertat https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/averto#Latin avertat:WARNEDturned away
averted; avoided
 diverted)

Nekoji prilozi za povjest kaptolske tvrđe u Varaždinskim …hrcak.srce.hr › file PDF <<Ako bi potribno gda, sta Bogh mentui, moiu kerv, polegh nyh … „Varaždin koncem XVI. vijeka” u „Vjesniku kr. hrv.-slav.-dalm. zemaljskoga arkiva” 1911. str.by J Barlé · ‎1912>>

From lyricstranslate.com › prasiblaškom-l… Tautinis Brandas – Prasiblaškom versuri + traducere în Engleză 30 sept. 2014 — Kažkas ant gatvės aiškinasi mentui. Lithuanian: Kažkas ant gatvės aiškinasi mentui English: Someone at the street is explaining something to a policeman

Also an text from spanish:

EL CARACTER NARRA’l’IVO DE LA LIRICA DEL REY DON DENIS
by Francisco Nodar Manso escholarship.mcgill.ca › dow…PDF Rezultate de pe web in partial fulfilment of the requirements Department of … Francisco Nodar Manso. Hispanic Stud.ies. Master of Arts. Scholars … << Los criticos han analizado la lirica gallegoportuguesa
desde dos perspectivas antag5nicas

E oj’ est o prazo passado ! Por que mentui o perjurado? ai, madre, moire d’amor~. (XVII,p.l? , vv.>> Note: perhaps the meaning is “lied to” Portuguese-english https://translate.google.com/?hl=en#pt/en/mentui mentui=”LIED

Las jarchas estan documentadas desde el siglo XI, y par tanto le corresponde a la lirica hispano-arabiga ser la mas antigua conservada escrita en una lengua romance ; como consecuencia de este hecho las investigaciones pos·teriores a la publicacion de las jarchas parten de
la lirica hispano-arabiga para dilucidar los innumerables problemas que suscita el estudio de la lirica medieval europea.

Vease para la musica gallega: J. Ribera, “De musica y metrica
gallegas”, Homena,je a Ramon Menendez Pidal, III, 1925, pags. 7-35;
Isabel Pope, “Medieval Latin Background of the Thirteenth Century Galician Lyric”, .§.]2, IX, (1943)

?? issuu.com › egigerofa › docs Czuczor-Fogarasi szótár by VZ B – issuu 19 iul. 2011 — Hasonlóan a latin-hellén szerkezetű koroná-nak, mint fejet … fél ( dimidium), fel-et, fel-ek, fel-ez, fél (mentuit) tájejtéssel: fíl ?????

The historie of the Councel of Trent Conteining eight bookes …quod.lib.umich.edu › eebo… of Saint Peter in the Vatican, of Saint Paul, and many others in diuers places, … <<Si ista vera sunt omnia, & Papae nihil mentui sunt, quid opus est Con∣cilio?>>google translate: If these things are true, & there is nothing to the mind of the Pope, what need is there Con|cilio?

=================================================== These supposed: – mantuitus:”cloacked”, (probably related to mantle, mantua) – Croatian menten:” chlamis/dis”, even supposed -Cr. mentui:”avert” – metuo /mentuo/metuere/mentui= “feared”? mentui”avert”, “lied to” ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

All are pointing to gr. mantis and manteuomai:”seer,sooth-saying, fortune-telling, oracle and so on.

In fact all above words give an intersection of mental fields of seer, cloak, chlamydis, mantle, guess, warned, etc.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%87%CE%BB%CE%B1%CE%BC%CF%8D%CF%82?fbclid=IwAR0h3pFb07SQtLD2KSxqvBrOm_jeze6iwtiTBKuOyG8fdLDF3lazCv5KpUQ χλᾰμῠ́ς  (khlamús) f (genitive χλᾰμῠ́δος); third declension

  1. cloakrobemantle +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

– sumerian bārû” or “haruspex”

Haruspicy | The Prediction Projectpredictionx.org › haruspicy Over the thousands of years that the Babylonian, Akkadian, Sumerian and other Mesopotamian cultures thrived, their priests and astrologers developed ..

Sumerian and Babylonian Psalms – Stephen Langdon …books.google.com › books › about › Sumerian_and_Bab…Jul 16, 2019 — While it is impossible to define the spheres of activity of the asipu and kalu priests, yet one fact remains clear, viz. that the psalmists (kalu)

– etruscan & roman haruspices (entrails inspection),seers,fortune-tellers – greek oracles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle#:~:text=The%20most%20important%20oracles%20of,Zeus%20at%20Dodona%20in%20Epirus. and – greek divination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_divination “The other type of mantis was the independent consultant mentioned above. The important generals and statesmen had their own prophets, to avoid such difficulties as Agamemnon experienced, when Calchas forced him to sacrifice his daughter and ransom his female prize in the opening of The Iliad. Privately hired manteis, such as Alexander used, never seemed to disagree with command decisions, or if a possibly negative prophecy was received, made sure that it was given the most favorable interpretation. By that time, based on what Cicero said, the leaders were probably skeptical of prophecy, but the beliefs of the superstitious soldiers were a factor to be considered.”

…………and through-out time to greek mysteries : Eleusinian Mysteries – Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Eleusinian_Mysteries ; Greco-Roman mysteries – Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org › wiki › Greco-Roman_mysteries and world-wide & greek incubation rituals Image https://www.greece-is.com/of-gods-and-dreams-the-ancient-healing-sanctuary-of-epidaurus/

Of Gods and Dreams: The Ancient Healing Sanctuary of Epidaurus - Greece Is

Incubation (ritual) – Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org › wiki › Incubation_(ritual) <<Incubation is the religious practice of sleeping in a sacred area with the intention of experiencing a divinely inspired dream or cure. Incubation was practised by many ancient cultures. In perhaps the most well known instance among the Hebrews, found in 1 Kings 3Solomon went to Gibeon “because that was the most renowned high place to offer sacrifices.” There “the Lord appeared to Solomon in a dream at night,” and Solomon asked God for the gift of an understanding heart. Among the members of the cult of Asclepius, votive offerings found at ritual centres at EpidaurusPergamum, and Rome detail the perceived effectiveness of the method. Incubation was adopted by certain Christian sects[1] and is still used in a few Greek monasteries. Modern practices for influencing dream content by dream incubation use more research-driven techniques, but they sometimes incorporate elements reflecting these ancient beliefs.

A form of incubation was also used by ancient Greeks iatromantes. According to Peter Kingsley, iatromantis figures belonged to a wider Greek and Asian shamanic tradition with origins in Central Asia. A main ecstatic, meditative practice of these healer-prophets was incubation (ἐγκοίμησις, enkoimesis). More than just a medical technique, incubation reportedly allowed a human being to experience a fourth state of consciousness different from sleeping, dreaming, or ordinary waking: a state that Kingsley describes as “consciousness itself” and likens to the turiya or samādhi of the Indian yogic traditions.>>

Note ! in english we have cloack as mantle and cloac as primitive animals common digestive-genital tract the word related to incubation.(latin cloaca sewer, cesspitcesspool, (anatomycloaca

…..to before-romanians ZALMOXIS

Arhive Zamolxe | Povestea Locurilor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zalmoxis << Zalmoxis had lived among the wisest of Greeks, such as Pythagoras, and had been initiated into Ionian life and the Eleusinian Mysteries. He built a banquet hall, and received the chiefs and his fellow countrymen at a banquet. He taught that neither his guests nor their descendants would ever die, but instead would go to a place where they would live forever in a complete happiness. He then dug an underground residence. When it was finished, he disappeared from Thrace, living for three years in his underground residence. The Thracians missed him and wept fearing him dead. The fourth year, he came back among them and thus they believed what Zalmoxis had told them.[ >>

Polovragi, pestera lui Zamolxe

Salmos (spanish “psalm”) and solomonari. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomonari <<Zeus hypothesis. King Solomon as weather-maker may derive from the Greek myth of Zeus the king of gods controlling the weather, a theory proposed by A. Oișteanu[41] This notion that Solomon’s adherents were wizards may have been popularized by the influence of the adventure tale Solomon and Morcolf.[42>>

www.biblicalstudy.ru › …
Новый Завет – Мир НЗ – Bible Studies – Русские страницы
It is possible to think of him as an ‘incomplete’ Christian, as indeed was Apollos … In Jer 27,9 [LXX], the false prophets are linked with the manteuo/menoi kai_ oi( ..

documente.bcucluj.ro › webPDF pag.589 b andeie v. manteie, ( Ita/ manta smantella)

By short, the romanian word MANTUIRE=”REDEEMER” has its roots in pre-christian pagan customs wich later somehow coexisted in the same time with christian faith. Those seers, wizards, fortune-tellers, sooth-sayers ,deviners. mags, magicians associated in different measures throughout the time by people with falsity, lie-lying, pseudo-nomo, ?+fear? Also in the semanthic field “hidden-covered“, avertat=divert ,wich really divert people out of sound thinking and turning-diverting them from their previous pagan or christian faith.They were usually dressed with mantles-cloaks-capes and lived in dirt (see lat. cloaca eng. cloac). From https://glosbe.com/la/en/mentitus?fbclid=IwAR0Iq8ErR6UwyAUfWYVGbleEbA8xggaxSm6Lm4SlSL_sN7oLwuyjLv5zuQ4 mentitus: “counterfeit , feigned ,imitated

The History Girls: Romano-British Cloaks by Caroline Lawrence

Theat’s why gr.mantis-manteuomay is related to mantel-cloak. Also mantis has the same root as mind. Seers not see with eyes but with mindFurther mind is related from the same root to lying.(I.E. root men:” mind”, gr. mantis, μαντεύω=manteuo; lat. mentes & mentis =”mind”; mentior,mentiri,mentire:”to lie” sp.port. “mentir”Old fr. mentir etc.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_in_the_Greco-Roman_world <<According to one source magic in general was held in low esteem and condemned by speakers and writers……..According to Robert Parker, “magic differs from religion as weeds differ from flowers, merely by negative social evaluation”; magic was often seen as consisting of practices that range from silly superstition to the wicked and dangerous. However, magic seems to have borrowed from religion, adopting religious ceremonies and divine names, and the two are sometimes difficult to clearly distinguish. Magic is often differentiated from religion in that it is manipulative rather than supplicatory of the deities.>>

Despite I continued searches and found now-days modern greek https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%B5%CF%8D%CF%89?fbclid=IwAR2pz36rmQHfRRRW9iKn1yL_9CnI9hFgon2j_ksa-1Eme7OzIZ0rcxkgXTw μαντεύω prophesyforetellpredict. guess imp.2pl.μαντεύετε and

imp. pres.μαντεύομαιperf. dependent μαντευτώ
www.jstor.org › stable
Prophecy and Ecstasy in Greco-Roman Religion and … – jstor
de la T Callan · 1985 · Citat de 44 · Articole conexe
RELIGION AND IN 1 CORINTHIANS by. TERRANCE CALLAN … I will be your spokesman” (manteuo, Moisa, pr. R. Dodds comments ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

So with deep sorrow I must dissapoint and deceive some of you, showing you an sermo vulgaris vulgar latin=romance family word: MENTUITUS Note: the vulgar latin texts has a very scarce presence

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/mentitus?fbclid=IwAR0kHwl2rhTnQsNjwFIcjWGnHSIZgyF_EbET5F92YK-4o-hUw5YnOOz0wb0#Latin Participle mentītus (feminine mentītaneuter mentītum); first/second-declension participle

  1. lieddeceived
  2. pretendedfeigned

aliso.pntic.mec.es › lista › pdfPDF Rezultate de pe web Amicum habes Now i know, that I had to borrow,. Beg and steal and lie and cheat. … quanto promisi , rapui, mentuitus sum et fefelli conandus te acquiscere …

??? I am puzzled cause by one hand mentuitus sum= “I lie” in vulgar latin and by the other hand tuitus is “defended” !?? https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/tuitum#Latin tuitus Etymology Past passive participle of tueor Participle tuitus (feminine tuitaneuter tuitum); first/second-declension participle defended

But because we have no mentuitus in classical latin (only mentitus) Mentuitus only in vulgar latin I am forced to take the form wich existed.

For the moment it is of no use the meaning https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/the-meaning-of/latin-word-2a9255ae23a3b412e80b85694f2c0595c35420c8.html?fbclid=IwAR39sLgZktMNCJkQGNRYYqzHjpI_Rk2-44V67V7_ILZO8aizC4kGIOp6hY0 of TUIT:”determined” because have no word mentuit in latin.

I searched for man tuitus thinking that Wulfila used such a word in gothic german there is mann but found only:

Full text of “Handbuch der römischen Alterthümer” – Internet …archive.org › stream… (Mommsen ergänzt adeptus est, leichter ergänzt man tuitus est), ut annon[ae^ quinq[ue] … S. Siatiatique de la France, Tome XXI; Resultats generaux du denonibrement .

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 HUNFALVY PÁL. AZ OLÁHOK TÖRTÉNETE.                            II. KÖTET. A MAGYAR TUDOMÁNYOS AKADÉMIA KÖNYVKIADÓ https://archive.org/stream/azolhoktrtnete02hunf              /azolhoktrtnete02hunf_djvu.txt
 "A figyelemre méltó másik szó a mentueste^ mentiiaste különbféle írással kifejezve. Ez a mentui igének con-junctivus praesense. A Máté 27. fejezetének 24. versét:                        ^Egyebeket megtartott, de magát nem tarthatja meg»              az Új testamentomi fordítás így adja vissza:                     «Pre altii a mentuitu, eara pre sine nu poate sa se mentuiaEnnek az új fordításnak czíme : «Noulu Testamentu alu domnului si Mentuitoriului nostru Jisusu Hristosu». 
Honnan valók a mentui és mentuitoriu szók ? Pont- 
briantnak rumun-franczia szótára azt is helyesen a ma- 
gyar menteni szótól származtatja. A Megváltó az olaszban 
Salvatore^ a spanyolban Salvador^ a francziában Sauveur 
 vagy serbatoare lehetett: úgyde ezt a nyelv már az stb. miért nem képezte az oláh nyelv is a latin salvare  szóból a Megváltónak nevét? Azért nem, mert az az 
oláhban csak sárbatoare « ünnep » kifejezésére foglalta volt le. 
Azért folyamodott a magyar mentemhez.^ ebből mentui 
igét és mentuitoriu névszót képezvén.*^'' 
 A rumun nyelv nemcsak magyar szókat fogadott cl, 
melyek mind a míveltség magasabb (politikai és egyházi)" 
 I must check how is written in The Hussite Bible (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussite_Bible#Vocabulary is the only written vestige of Hussitism in Hungary. The book – or at least the most of it – was translated by Tamás Pécsi and Bálint Újlaki.) 
 Romanian translation:                                          Un alt cuvânt remarcabil este mentueste mentuiaste
exprimată în scrieri diferite. Acest con-junctivus praesense. Versetul 24 din Matei 27:
<<El i-a păstrat pe alții, dar nu se poate păstra pe el însuși>>
 Revine o nouă traducere testamentară:                        «Pre altii a mentuitu, eara pre sine nu poate sa se mentuia. » Din aceasta titlul noii traduceri: «Noulu Testament alu domnului si Mentuitoriului nostru Jisusu Hristosu ».      
 De unde vin cuvintele mentui și mentuitoriu? Punct-
Dicționarul român-francez Briant este, de asemenea, corect din cuvantul maghiar menteni (salvează) cuvântul derivă. Mântuitorul în Italiana Salvatore în spaniolă Salvador în franceză Sauveur Sauveur etc. :de ce limba vlaha nu a format și latina salvare
numele Mântuitorului la propriu? Nu, pentru că în Vlaha ar putea fi doar sárbatoare sau serbatoare: așa mai departe
Limba era deja rezervată pentru termenul «vacanță».
El a făcut apel la mentemhez-ul meu maghiar. ^ Din care mentui
verb și substantiv mentuitoriu. *  
 Limba română a primit nu numai cuvinte maghiare cl, 
 care sunt toate superioare în educație (politică și ecleziastică)
Nota: Foarte stiintifica abordarea atat timp cat extrage acel pasaj Matei din propria lucrare.Cand putea face un minim efort sa vaza cum apar cuvintele in scripturi romanesti mai vechi sau foarte vechi !                                       ============== English translation ======
 HUNFALVY PÁL. OLAH(VLACHS) HISTORY
 II. VOLUMES. BOOK PUBLISHING COMPANY OF THE HUNGARIAN ACADEMY OF SCIENCES. NEW PROCESS. XIX. VOLUMES. https://archive.org/stream/azolhoktrtnete02hunf/azolhoktrtnete02hunf_djvu.txt  
 "Another remarkable word is mentueste  mentuiaste expressed in different writings. This con-junctivus praesense. Verse 24 of Matthew 27:                                                     << He has kept others, but he cannot keep himself >>             A new testamentary  translation returns:  
 A new testamentary  translation returns:                     «Pre altii a mentuitu, eara pre sine nu  poate sa se mentuia. » Of this the title of the new translation: «Noulu Testamentu alu domnului si Mentuitoriului nostru Jisusu Hristosu ».         Where do the words mentui and mentuitoriu come from? Point-
The Romanian-French dictionary of briant also correctly derives it from the Hungarian word menteni (me:save). The Savior in Italy
Salvatore ^ in Spanish Salvador ^ in French Sauveur
etc. why did not the Vláh language also form the Latin salvare
the name of the Savior literally? Not because it is
in Oláh it could only be sárbatoare or serbatoare: so on
The language was already reserved for the term «holiday».     
 He appealed to my Hungarian mentemhez of which mentui
verb and mentuitoriu noun. * ^ ''
The Romanian language received not only Hungarian words cl, which are all higher in education (political and ecclesiastical          ======:https://www.dict.com/angol-magyar/mentemhez  mentemhez:"cent" https://www.dict.com/angol-magyar/menteni menteni:"swing, sweep, beckon,motionwave(one's hand), warn away from sth.  From 1749 Bible same passage    Google translate, tarthatja :"can hold" megtartott:"retained" I am asking too/the same question: Mr.PÁL, why you do not used for mentuit/mentuire (enlesh redeem,redeemer) Mentemhez-derived words, but:      1.megvalt: "realised"; 2. https://hungarian.english-dictionary.help/english-to-hungarian-dictionary-meaning-of-redeem                                 Redeem :megvált
Redeemed :: megváltott                                    Redeemer :: Megváltó   
Camerata Hungarica - Magyarországi Evangélikus Egyház
www.evangelikus.hu › sites › default › files › C-Section
Saviour (Megváltó)
 =====
My note: He cited the Matehew27 passage from his own paper, not from much or most ancinent romanian writings.                   In fact there is an close form latin verb mentuire https://en.eprevodilac.com/prevodilac-latinski-engleski .      But of course from mentire "to lie" from Latin mentīrī‎, present active infinitive of mentior:"Denominal verb from mēns, mentis‎ ("mind"). The meaning "to lie" stems from a semantic shift "to be inventive, have second thoughts" , but from the other its 3 meanings:deceive, pretendfeign because the word come to be used before christian religion from pagan devinators,wizzards.Maybe :                  - latins perceived early christians as deceive( trick or mislead)from their fate, or as well            - ancient romanians as under early christian influence perceived latin devinators & haruspices as diverting deceive( trick or mislead)them from their faith.
mentītus (masc.) (fem. mentītaneut. mentītum)
lieddeceived pretendedfeigned.If we have the same mentuire we have not rom.mentitus but mentuitu(s) wich is not present in this shape in latin, only tuitus (defended,saved) separately.

eng.(to)keep rom.(a)”pastra,continua,mentine”      1.rom. Mentine: engl.”maintain” << latin man(u)-tenere      
 2.also lat.man(ere)-tuitu(s) “remain / last-defended  rom. (a)”ramane/sfarsiaparat, salvat
3.Also lat.Man(es)-tuit(us) :” save(d)-spirit(soul)” rom. Man tuit(us): “saved soul
 I wander from wich briant french dictionary (but I will check further) he found that rom. “(a) mantui”= eng.”to redeem” is from hungarian language "menteni"!? As long as I found  also Indo-European/Romance/Old French “mentui” a form of mentevoir:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
 Full text of "Grammaire sommaire de 1!ancien français .."
 archive.org › stream
  https://archive.org/details/grammairesommai00bonngoog
 Mentir. Ind. prés. 2* s. mens; 3® s. ment, manL — Pas. déf. 2® s. mentis; 3** s. mentid, mentit, menti, manti ; 3® pi. mentirent. — Futur. 3" s. mentirad. — Subj. prés. 
3* s. mentet, mente. — Infin. mentir, mantir. — Part. prés, mentant. — Part, pas, mentit, mentut.   
 Mentevoir et Mentoivrk. Ind. prés, l""* s. mentoif, mantoif, mentois, mantpis; 3*^ s. mentoit; 2* pi. menlevez, menteves. — Imparf. 3® s. mentevoit. — Pas. déf. f® s. mentui, 
menti ; 3® pi. menlurent, manturenl. — Subj. prés. 3* s. mentoive, mentive. — Infin. menteveir, mentevoir, mentovoir, mentaveir, mentoivre. — Part. prés, mentevant. — Part. pas. 
menteii, manteii, mantehu, mentati, mentiut, mentut, mantu. 
 
From https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mentevoir
 1.  Etymology: From Latin mente habēre ("have in mind"). Compare Occitan mentàver.   Mentevoir: “to mention; to speak of”
 
Note: Mentui from any where could come :
 - Is far from Old French mentui: “mentioned,spoked of” or other identical, at least because Romanian word “(a)mantui “ has much, many meanings as gr. Soter(ios),or engl.redeem, save.
 - Gramatical forms is evidencing by “tuit”/”tuitu(s)” possible a much older origin as romance/sermo vulgaris stage.                                                          It seem that is related to latin Balcanic/Aegean mistery rel igions, scorcerers-sooth-sayers,wizards-fortune tellers (in fact at least partly kind of crooks)                               From the time of Salmos(es)/Zalmoxis and solomonari.
 -Sp.salmos=psalm ; thr. salmos:animal skin covering(cloak).    @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
If I will have time I am convinced that this cluster:           hu. menteni/mentemhez                                          gr. men mantis manteuomai, manteuo(μαντεύω,μαντεύτε )                                        lat. mens/mentis/mentui, mentior/mentitus ;                                                rom. mantui(mentui)/mantuire(mentuire)/mantuit(mentuit),mentine, mentenanta                                              fr.mentire, mentevoir/mentui , mentener="keep"                                 engl. maintain , maintenance                                    All are stemming/originate/pertain to I.European family of languages.They have in common humankind mind wich ultimate is at the origin and determining different mental processes and physical actions.
  ----------------------------------
 Révai Miklós Magyar irodalmi régiségek Antiquitates literaturae Hungaricae http://mek.oszk.hu/16900/16955/16955.pdf              Es marada anemberi Ð ket fiaytol » ferietÐl
 megvalt (Ruth 1,5), ’Remansitque mulier orbata duobus liberis suis, ac marito
 suo’  mente ’clamys’                                             A birtokos eset toldaléka a magánhangzóra végződő töveknél a választékosabb használatban a jóhangzás kedvéért szintén j-t kap, mint például:almájé, mentéjé, ollójé, bár sokan keményebben ejtik: almáé, mentéé, ollóé. Ennyit a szabályról.
  A második, rövidebb halotti beszéd
 A KÉZIRATI PÉLDÁNY
 Scerelmes bratým uımaggomuc ez scegen ember lılkıert. kıt vr ez nopun ez homus vılag tımnucebelevl mente. kınec ez nopun testet temetívc. hug
 ur uvt kegılmehel abraam. ùsaac. iacob kebeleben helhezıe. hug bırsagnop
 ívtva mend vv scentíí es unuttei cuzıcun ıov felevl ıchtotnıa ılezıe vvt. Es
 tıv bennetuc. clamate ııı. Á.
 A KIADÓ OLVASATA
 Szerelmes barátim! vimádjamuk ez szegény ember lelkéért, kit Úr ez napon
 ez hamos világ tömnötzebelől mente, kinek ez napon testét temetjük: hogy Úr
 vőt kegyelméhel, Ábrahám, Izsák, Jákob kebelében helyhezje; hogy, bírságnap jutva, ménd vő Szentei és Önöttei közökön jov felől ioktatnia éleszje vőt.
 És tiv bennetöket. Clamate ter: Kyrie eleison!
Ha zerzendez m¹nket megzabadoitanod (uo., 13,9), ’Si decreveris nos salvare’. me: megzabadoitanod "you get rid of it"
   

folia uralica debreceniensia 25. - Finnugor Nyelvtudományi ...
finnugor.arts.unideb.hu › fud › fud25 › fud25_2
PDF  4.1.2. идемс ’megvált’, идиця ’megváltó’, идема ’megváltás’
 ● сонъ идисамизь минекъ душманнокъ эйстэ да весе а вечкитсянокъ кедстэ // кучовтозесь идесамизь эсенек вардотнеде ды сетнень кедест алдо, конат кирдить
 кеж минек лангс // что спасет нас от врагов наших и от руки всех ненавидящих
 нас // megmentett minket ellenségeinktől és gyűlölőink kezétől (01:71)
 ● монь оймемъ Идится Пазомъ туртовъ эрьгеди // ды монь оймем кенярды Паздонть, монь Идицядонть // и возрадовался дух Мой о Боге, Спасителе Моем //
 és szívem ujjong megváltó Istenemben (01:47)
 ● тонъ ломатненень максатъ идимадостъ да пежетестъ кадовмадостъ чаркодьме //
 тон кармат сонзэ ломантнень чарькодевтеме идемадо, конась ашти пежетест
 нолдамосо // дать уразуметь народу Его спасение в прощении грехов их // hogy
 az üdvösség ismeretét add népének bűnei bocsánatára (01:77)
 ● монь сельмень неизь ней Тонть ломатнень идиматъ // эдь монь сельметне неизь
 тонь кучовт идеманть // ибо видели очи мои спасение Твое // mert látta szemem
 üdvösségedet (02:30)
 Ld. még: 02:11 (идиця), 03:06 (идема).
 идемс ’выручить, выкупить, спасти, избавить / auslösen, loskaufen,
 freikaufen, retten, erretten, erlösen’ (MdWb 439); ’спасти, выручить’ (ERV
 203); ’megment, kiment’ (EMSz 124); ’pelastaa, vapauttaa’ (ESS 55); идиця
 ’спаситель / erlöser’ (MdWb 441); ’спаситель’ (ERV 203); ’megmentő, megváltó’ (EMSz 124). Az идема az иде- igetőből -ма névszóképzővel alkotott
 főnév. Az идиця participium praesens alak. – Ismeretlen eredetű szó (ESM
 82).
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
   
    

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.


%d bloggers like this: